Are you a Flat World Society Member?

Post deleted. On second thoughts, life's too short!

The year is 2547, and a discussion forum is noting that the earliest extant prohibitions and news reports extant about the activities of McDonalds hamburgers occurs in Britain, Australia and France (all only very few years apart). According to this evidence, those interested in 'the facts' maintain their search for the earliest McDonalds stores in those countries.

Some allow their weird imaginings to take them to North America (specifically the then single country USA) to suggest a possible origin there, but only on far more circumstantial evidence.

The name, after all, suggest a northern British origin (Scottish to be precise), and the design of the logo is argued by some to be far more French-like. The 'food' (have to place it in quotation marks!) seems to be more reminiscent of a former penal colony such as Australia.

But of course, historical facts are historical facts.

Huck said:

"By the mid 13th century algorithmic arithmetic was established in Italy well in advance of anywhere else in Europe, the immediate reason for this being the commercial pre-eminence of the northern Italian cities. Dissemination was slow: although by the 15th century one could learn algorithmic addition and subtraction in Germany, instruction in the arts of multiplication and division could still only be found in Italy. By the beginning of the 16th century, just before the scientific revolution, the Germans were still 200 years behind!"
"The algorithmic revolution made zero into a number by expanding the meaning of number, a process driven by expanding its use."

Well, I'm a little puzzled and I've Ifrah not at hand. But this sentence gives the riddle, that Peurbach and Regiomontanus from North of the Alps could improve some complex astronomical viewing points with responding Italian enthusiasm about it, although, as attested, being 200 years behind and possibly not able to teach multiplication and division in their own countries.

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Well for example Peurbach commenced and his pupil Regiomontanus completed the project of translating the Almagest with colloboration and patronage of Cardinal Bessarion; and I think perhaps the greater establishment of the new arithmetic in Italy is perhaps related to Byzantine influence, as from at least 50 years prior to the fall of constantinople there had been an influx of Greek speaking professors into Italian courts and universities; and the new arithmetic was more widely known, established and accepted among some Byzantine scholars before latin speaking ones. So this is one possible part of an explanation.

Kwaw

jmd said:

The year is 2547, and a discussion forum is noting that the earliest extant prohibitions and news reports extant about the activities of McDonalds hamburgers occurs in Britain, Australia and France (all only very few years apart). According to this evidence, those interested in 'the facts' maintain their search for the earliest McDonalds stores in those countries.

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Someone mentions their interest in the history of the "slow food" movement, which arose at much the same time - clearly the rise of the Big Mac and the rise of the call for real cooking came out of a culture that was having debates about food quality. Looking into why this was the case might tell us a lot about the environment that gave rise to fast food in the first place, she suggests.

She is told firmly once again that there is irrefutable evidence for the origin of MacDonalds in Europe.

She is somewhat surprised as s/he was not aware that her post was in any way questioning that - it was on a related issue and was not an attempt to prove that Julia Child (that well-known gypsy cook) was the inventor of the first MacDonalds. She decides not to post again and continues the research into "slow food" on her own - there just isn't time to engage in a battle that she was never interested in fighting in the first place. The "European origin" debates continue to rage. But no-one ever seems to be able to come up for a reason for the sudden collapse of MacDonalds (which began with the closure of 25 restaurants in the UK in 2006). This catastrophic demise remains a mystery to this day.

I bow out of this thread here and go off to try to find out more about this whole Marias cards thing (which has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with Italian origin - probably ;-) ). Thanks JMD.

I read this thread with the greatest interest.

One thing I want to say is: I AM SORRY.

I think I understand what you all mean, and I feel sorry for not using your time and mine in the best possible way.

I found in your posts here many interesting suggestions, that I will try to use for the benefit of the ATF community, for which I feel gratitude and admiration. I would like to have more suggestions, as simple and concrete as possible. So I also have two questions for you all:

1. What can I do?
2. What can you do?

Marco

kwaw said:

Well for example Peurbach commenced and his pupil Regiomontanus completed the project of translating the Almagest with colloboration and patronage of Cardinal Bessarion; and I think perhaps the greater establishment of the new arithmetic in Italy is perhaps related to Byzantine influence, as from at least 50 years prior to the fall of constantinople there had been an influx of Greek speaking professors into Italian courts and universities; and the new arithmetic was more widely known, established and accepted among some Byzantine scholars before latin speaking ones. So this is one possible part of an explanation.

Kwaw

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Hm ... as I've said, I've Ifrah not at hand, but I remember dark for the first use of the ciphers a time region of ca. 800 AD in Spain, so much earlier than discussed here. Correct me, if I'm wrong.
Also I remember, that imported Abaci had the Arabian ciphers and that they are likely the distributing factor for the ciphers use in Europe. Tough, I could imagine a slow distribution, as the printing industry simply didn't exist. When itis stated that the use somehow spread with Peurbach, then this likely means actually: "printing technic made it possible, that the cipher system (already long known between experts) became a serious competitor to the Roman number system".
As Peurbach belonged to the first printed authors (Regiomontanus activities in Nurremberg ca. 1472) one could state state, that "somehow" Peurbach "invented" here something, but actually it is nonsense regarding the real historical process.
Italy lived from commerce, importing all sorts of material from east, also they developed the banking business. Naturally they were a leading force in the use of basic arithmetical technics (but a conclusion, that one didn't know how to multiplicate and divide elsewhere, goes too far, I would guess.

Constantinople was degraded with 1204, restoring itself some 50 years later, but actually suffering deadly from the Osmans already in late 14th century. Of course they still had something to offer for Italian mind in 15th century ... just for the enthusiasm of early humanism, but actually the center of progress had moved long ago.
George of Trebizond made a start with the Almagest in 1451, but was attacked by Bessarion with the help of Regiomontanus later.
Well, the story seems to have been ... Italy in its new developed state of progress and innovation and everywhere else undeveloped intellectual interests plundered the reachable resources of earlier centers. Not only in Constantinople, but also in Germany and other regions. This went well till 1500 and ended with France getting Milan and with Spanish/German soldiers in the Sacco di Roma 1527.

delete (please and thank you!)

DoctorArcanus said:

I read this thread with the greatest interest.

One thing I want to say is: I AM SORRY.

I think I understand what you all mean, and I feel sorry for not using your time and mine in the best possible way.

I found in your posts here many interesting suggestions, that I will try to use for the benefit of the ATF community, for which I feel gratitude and admiration. I would like to have more suggestions, as simple and concrete as possible. So I also have two questions for you all:

1. What can I do?

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... you can do a lot, cause you're Italian and have short ways to some important sources, which actually are needed to understand the process. ... and actually, the developmen of some understanding in the region of Tarot history needs more Italians. The "internet world of Tarot history" is naturally
English dominated ... that's history of the past 10 years, which invented internet as a common tool ...
Actually internet is an intellectual revolution, cause grandious developments like search engines, selfpublishing systems, email-communication etc.

Research activity in relation to results might be decreased to 1:10 in comparition to the years before internet. A lot of people don't realise, what this means, that's a problem, of course, and individual temperament and personal social desire, language difficulties etc. can be others ... but, anyway, see the progress.

We're in the situation of Aldus Manutius and much better ...

2. What can you do?
(/QUOTE]

.. I can only speak for myself ...

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Fulgour said:

...as an example of the insufferable arrogance we are shown hereabouts if we dare ask an interesting question, out of bounds...

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Like the long insufferable posts that are so far OFF TOPIC that it is real obvious the posters have no concept of the thesis.

Rosanne said:

…when faced with another History viewpoint, I consider the thoughtful research that has gone into that view, I weigh it up in my own mind, and most likely I will bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. If you patronise me with “this is the 'facts' and nothing else will be considered” type vehement argument- I will assign you to the 'flat earth society membership' remember my History lessons at school, chuckle cynically, and dream on...

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(emphasis added)

Throughout this thread, it has become painfully obvious that many historians either don’t read (the thesis), could care less about the thesis and will swing whichever way the pseudo-intellectual wind blows, or, have to make it all “about them”, and or squelch dialogue.

Therefore, according to the thesis – are Flat Earth Society Members.

At no time did the active historians participating ask WHY did Roseanne post such a thesis?

They were more interested in being right.

Insufferable arrogant pompousness. My fear is that they may actually teach a child…

You know...above the text - at the top corner (no I'm not going to tell you which one - find it yourself) there's a button. on it are the words, "post new thread"...if you are about to post something that has nothing to do with the thesis of this thread...please use that post new topic button.

Rosanne and I have discussed assigning grades to you guys. So far – many of you will be repeating class next year.

Moderator Note:

Several posts on this thread border on crossing the line from discussion into personal attacks.

I encourage us all to be respectful.

This is an important topic for this forum, with the potential to improve communication between members, increase the level of participation, and enhance the way topics are discussed.

Please consider this when posting.

Thank you,

robert