venicebard
Yes indeedy-bop! It may prove useful, though, to trim and re-word some entries.le pendu said:
Anyway, I shall continue tomorrow hopefully . . .
Au revoir
Questions about the "Bardic origin of Tarot" theory
Anyway, I shall continue tomorrow hopefully . . .
Au revoir
DianeOD
Hisperica Famina
Hi Le Pendu
Umm... I don't know how much time or interest you have in following the line after Ogham was replaced by other scripts in Ireland, but I think you might be onto something... and it may be the language which the monks made up for themselves (just as they blended Ogham with Latin characters) - they made marvellous poems and hymns in it, and there's a poem called the 'Song of the Hermit' I believe.
It will be solid work, but if you follow it up, I think you might get something of real interest here.
For example, here are two lines from one of the poems of that 'secret society' language:
Titaneus olimphium inflamat arotus tabulatum,
thalasicum illustrat uapore flustrum . . .
"a-rotus tabulatum"
one wonders whether there was a form "ta-rotus". Certainly is such an initial plural form in North Africa...
There's not much on the web, and what there is, is good.
The Wikipedia article, at the bottom, links to a pdf article whose author (Jane Stevenson) - or rather her work - is well known to me. She is a specialist in Syriac studies, and has written on the effect which the "Nestorian style" had on the early Anglo-Saxon church - I mean in general, not re tarot-style imagery.
Anything Jane Stevenson writes is well worth reading..
Good luck
Ogham inscription found in America.
Hi Le Pendu
Umm... I don't know how much time or interest you have in following the line after Ogham was replaced by other scripts in Ireland, but I think you might be onto something... and it may be the language which the monks made up for themselves (just as they blended Ogham with Latin characters) - they made marvellous poems and hymns in it, and there's a poem called the 'Song of the Hermit' I believe.
It will be solid work, but if you follow it up, I think you might get something of real interest here.
For example, here are two lines from one of the poems of that 'secret society' language:
Titaneus olimphium inflamat arotus tabulatum,
thalasicum illustrat uapore flustrum . . .
"a-rotus tabulatum"
one wonders whether there was a form "ta-rotus". Certainly is such an initial plural form in North Africa...
There's not much on the web, and what there is, is good.
The Wikipedia article, at the bottom, links to a pdf article whose author (Jane Stevenson) - or rather her work - is well known to me. She is a specialist in Syriac studies, and has written on the effect which the "Nestorian style" had on the early Anglo-Saxon church - I mean in general, not re tarot-style imagery.
Anything Jane Stevenson writes is well worth reading..
Good luck
Ogham inscription found in America.
venicebard
Forgive my previous brief answer to this (I was making a dry remark about the current state of education, not necessarily about what you have managed to take from it). I'll try to put it succinctly, beginning with your (former) query:firemaiden said:
Two things initially pointed me to the alphabet's relevance to tarot.
First, of course, was the exact mimicking of the Kabbalist's universe in the structure of the deck: 4 + 10 (4-letter Name + 10 Sefirot) through 4 suits (the 4 worlds), the 4 being titled but unnumbered, the 10 being numbered but untitled, plus 22 cards (the 22 letters) that are numbered and titled with the exception of one what lacks a number (LeMat) and one what lacks a title (XIII), but which if LePendu is right the titles and numbers (i.e. ranking) were added later. My take is that this was because earlier both title and rank were so well known (and indicated by number of devices in the pips) as to need no further expression: this must certainly have been true of rank, else how could the game have been played?
Second was the evidence gleaned from Graves's TWG both that the insular Kelts had an alphabet closely related to Hebrew -- which I have since been able to demonstrate rather conclusively -- and that the trumps arose from bardic numeration, not Hebrew-Greek as the occultists believed (unaware as they were of the bardic, which is probably for the better, considering their motives). The latter, then, forms the basis of my thesis (for thesis it is, one I need to trim from 400 pgs. double-spaced down to 250).
Now in order to start from the original pointing arrow and build a foundation of understanding for others, I am at the moment (at Robert's behest) limiting my discussion to the bardic elements that set me on this course 3 1/2 decades ago (at which I am a bit rusty, especially since my notes on Graves the second time through TWG were stolen from me). But the overall argument -- without which I would not expect any truly educated person to even begin to accept it as an historical argument -- involves comparative epigraphy, Teutonic mythology, Hebrew Kabbalah, and much more. I can demonstrate, for example, the direct kinship between the Kabbalah and runes, though part (not all) of the argument involves correction of the Semitic alphabet's (and Sefer Yetzirah's) careful jumbling of the order of letters about the round; but this original order arises quite easily from Keltic calendar order and is confirmed quite clearly by the shapes of the letters involved.
In short, it is on the sum total of "all roads leading to Rome" (or in this case, Provence-Languedoc) that my argument is based, and when the sum-total is viewed, doubt withers (though I yet water it, hoping).
And thank you, by the way, for even asking.
venicebard
After tinne-holly is:
K-coll-hazel, 9
Salient features: its nut, a compact and nutritious primary protein, falling from the 'nine hazels of poetic art' fed the salmon of knowledge, the spatter from cooking of which inspired the hero Fionn with prophetic wisdom.
VIIII L'Hermite: also called 'Old Man', it shows the wisdom of age (since he carries a lamp), gathered up in his cloak ('in a nutshell'), meaning clearly set apart (from life's 'static').
Note: it is clear the number refers to rebirth (9 months in a womb), this being how we acquire wisdom (unless you're a "only go around once" type) and pass it on.
M-muin-vine, 6
Salient features: I take "Heard It Through the Grapevine" (the song) as expressing its unitive nature, while the grape sympolizes sweetness, and wine love (as in early Sufi poetry).
VI L'Amoureux (The Lover): life's sweetness, its savoriness, what can I say (expressed also by the sound m itself); but I would point out that the ultimate sweetness is knowledge ("know thyself"), perhaps represented by the implied choice between cleric on the left and lass on the right (love of knowledge vs. amour).
Note: the 6 directions of space (up-down-fore-aft-starboard-port, or up-down-east-west-south-north) unite everything in a single objective reality.
G-gort-ivy, 10
Salient features: wandering, seeking, serpentlike, it stands for desire, for it clings tenaciously (as do the 10 digits), and lore has it that English ivy is actually seeking just the right mixture of light and moisture and soil, which it seldom finds but when it does it turns into a tree (I once met someone who had seen one).
X LaRoue deFortune: it shows the lesson of desire, namely that the pinnacle of fortune to which one aspires is fleeting and easily overturned (because it is part of a deeper search, for meaning, for self-knowledge) as we wander about the wheel like livy about the trunk it will later strangle.
Note: serpentlike vine and ivy being placed here at libra and scorpio mirror the 'serpent power' or kundalini yogis say is coiled (both grow spirally) at the base of the spine, libra being the point on which this sits (i.e. straight down, from its opposite, aries the head).
P-peith-whitten, 7
Salient features: whitten, or guelder-rose, or water-elder, has leaves that turn pink or red in autumn (this being the month enclosing the point sagittary) and is nick-named snowball from its flower display (symbolizing that late fall leads to winter with its snow); but its place in ogham is taken by Ng-[n]getal-reed, used for thatching against said snow, and for measurement, and by ancient Egyptians as a sceptor.
VII LeChariot: the only character amongst the trumps to be under a roof-like canopy (reed being used in roof-thatching), and he carries a sceptor; the obscurity of whitten (though not of reed) hides the profound importance of this letter-and-number hinted at by its being a chief symbol of initiation into the mysteries in both East (KRShNA in Bhaghavad Ghita/Mahavarata is Arjuna's charioteer) and West (Ma'aseh Merkavah, the 'Work of the Chariot', was what the deepest Judaic mysteries were called before Kabbalah made the scene, but the evidence leads beyond strictly bardic confines.
Note: 7 is one of the most important numbers in the mysteries, being the number of signs on the manifested half of the round.
R-ruis-elder, 15
Salient features: 15th and last consonant in ogham, it is a medicinal tree associated with death, with the feared 'Elder Mother', and English folklore has it that to burn elder "let's the devil in the house."
XV LeDiable: here we see the result of burning its wood, but more than that, we see the twins brought together into the picture once again (having been hinted at in the preceding month with the pair of horses hitched to LeChariot), but as they seem to the lesser twin, the holly-king or tanist (waning year) who succeeded the oak-king and now fears the end of his own reign.
Note: the only two trumps that show the twins standing (though XVI LaMaisonDieu shows them evidently being evicted as a consideration from the hero's ediface, as a result of his inspiration) are those of the month departing from and the month returning to winter solstice, this being where the two meet, where they are born, whereas at summer solstice one of them (the oak-hero) has been sacrificed.
K-coll-hazel, 9
Salient features: its nut, a compact and nutritious primary protein, falling from the 'nine hazels of poetic art' fed the salmon of knowledge, the spatter from cooking of which inspired the hero Fionn with prophetic wisdom.
VIIII L'Hermite: also called 'Old Man', it shows the wisdom of age (since he carries a lamp), gathered up in his cloak ('in a nutshell'), meaning clearly set apart (from life's 'static').
Note: it is clear the number refers to rebirth (9 months in a womb), this being how we acquire wisdom (unless you're a "only go around once" type) and pass it on.
M-muin-vine, 6
Salient features: I take "Heard It Through the Grapevine" (the song) as expressing its unitive nature, while the grape sympolizes sweetness, and wine love (as in early Sufi poetry).
VI L'Amoureux (The Lover): life's sweetness, its savoriness, what can I say (expressed also by the sound m itself); but I would point out that the ultimate sweetness is knowledge ("know thyself"), perhaps represented by the implied choice between cleric on the left and lass on the right (love of knowledge vs. amour).
Note: the 6 directions of space (up-down-fore-aft-starboard-port, or up-down-east-west-south-north) unite everything in a single objective reality.
G-gort-ivy, 10
Salient features: wandering, seeking, serpentlike, it stands for desire, for it clings tenaciously (as do the 10 digits), and lore has it that English ivy is actually seeking just the right mixture of light and moisture and soil, which it seldom finds but when it does it turns into a tree (I once met someone who had seen one).
X LaRoue deFortune: it shows the lesson of desire, namely that the pinnacle of fortune to which one aspires is fleeting and easily overturned (because it is part of a deeper search, for meaning, for self-knowledge) as we wander about the wheel like livy about the trunk it will later strangle.
Note: serpentlike vine and ivy being placed here at libra and scorpio mirror the 'serpent power' or kundalini yogis say is coiled (both grow spirally) at the base of the spine, libra being the point on which this sits (i.e. straight down, from its opposite, aries the head).
P-peith-whitten, 7
Salient features: whitten, or guelder-rose, or water-elder, has leaves that turn pink or red in autumn (this being the month enclosing the point sagittary) and is nick-named snowball from its flower display (symbolizing that late fall leads to winter with its snow); but its place in ogham is taken by Ng-[n]getal-reed, used for thatching against said snow, and for measurement, and by ancient Egyptians as a sceptor.
VII LeChariot: the only character amongst the trumps to be under a roof-like canopy (reed being used in roof-thatching), and he carries a sceptor; the obscurity of whitten (though not of reed) hides the profound importance of this letter-and-number hinted at by its being a chief symbol of initiation into the mysteries in both East (KRShNA in Bhaghavad Ghita/Mahavarata is Arjuna's charioteer) and West (Ma'aseh Merkavah, the 'Work of the Chariot', was what the deepest Judaic mysteries were called before Kabbalah made the scene, but the evidence leads beyond strictly bardic confines.
Note: 7 is one of the most important numbers in the mysteries, being the number of signs on the manifested half of the round.
R-ruis-elder, 15
Salient features: 15th and last consonant in ogham, it is a medicinal tree associated with death, with the feared 'Elder Mother', and English folklore has it that to burn elder "let's the devil in the house."
XV LeDiable: here we see the result of burning its wood, but more than that, we see the twins brought together into the picture once again (having been hinted at in the preceding month with the pair of horses hitched to LeChariot), but as they seem to the lesser twin, the holly-king or tanist (waning year) who succeeded the oak-king and now fears the end of his own reign.
Note: the only two trumps that show the twins standing (though XVI LaMaisonDieu shows them evidently being evicted as a consideration from the hero's ediface, as a result of his inspiration) are those of the month departing from and the month returning to winter solstice, this being where the two meet, where they are born, whereas at summer solstice one of them (the oak-hero) has been sacrificed.
DianeOD
Alphabets
What I think reasonable is that, if (as I think) the earliest form of pack had come as a generic 'forme' for memory, exactly as was being recommended in those times - see Carruthers (not Yates!) on this - then using an alphabet series somehow within any memory-pattern was the norm.
AS for the Jewish alphabet and the eventual '22' Atouts of the tarot; there's no reason at all why the Jewish community might not have have applied the idea of a pack of mnemonic cards to suit their own needs, and then used them in the same way, for the same purpose, for their own formal curriculum... which in North Africa was entirely based on religious texts.My only problem with the Jewish use of tarots is that the greater part of the Kabbalistic corpus simply doesn't develop early enough.
The 'Zohar' though was treated in North Africa as a work of superlative theology, even with the same reverence accorded the Torah.
Its study was restricted to higher students of theology, who knew Hebrew, where most others spoke a regional dialect called Judeo-Arabic. On the other hand - in North Africa there were people assigned to recite the Zohar, and some times this would be done continually both day and night.
The degree to which the indigenous 'Jews' of North Africa had been Jews before the Muslim invasion is another question.
What I think reasonable is that, if (as I think) the earliest form of pack had come as a generic 'forme' for memory, exactly as was being recommended in those times - see Carruthers (not Yates!) on this - then using an alphabet series somehow within any memory-pattern was the norm.
AS for the Jewish alphabet and the eventual '22' Atouts of the tarot; there's no reason at all why the Jewish community might not have have applied the idea of a pack of mnemonic cards to suit their own needs, and then used them in the same way, for the same purpose, for their own formal curriculum... which in North Africa was entirely based on religious texts.My only problem with the Jewish use of tarots is that the greater part of the Kabbalistic corpus simply doesn't develop early enough.
The 'Zohar' though was treated in North Africa as a work of superlative theology, even with the same reverence accorded the Torah.
Its study was restricted to higher students of theology, who knew Hebrew, where most others spoke a regional dialect called Judeo-Arabic. On the other hand - in North Africa there were people assigned to recite the Zohar, and some times this would be done continually both day and night.
The degree to which the indigenous 'Jews' of North Africa had been Jews before the Muslim invasion is another question.
venicebard
I think you assume -- along with most scholars, admittedly -- that it was 'development', rather than 'decay'. It is clear to me that Kabbalah -- and culture generally, I might add -- decayed afterwards from its high point in the 12th century (the Italian Renaissance was its 'wake', pun intended). For the sages were clear on the fact that the true teaching was secret (not permitted to be otherwise), and while some can be reconstructed from later remnants such as those of Safed (i.e. 'Lurianic' Kabbalah), for that concerning the alphabet one must do as I believe the Jewish sages of the 12th century did, compare the decayed Jewish tradition with the (also decayed) Keltic tradition originally branched off the same trunk.DianeOD said:
Even the Zohar, but a century later, already shows decline, in that what I am finding in my reading of it is some profound knowledge of the deeper strata mixed in with no small amount of the shallower superstitions of the day. That I see a little deeper into the secret teaching (than do today's rabbis, apparently) is merely a result of my broader approach, wherein I do not expect to find it all laid out for me within its surviving Jewish remnants.
But while Jews may well have had something to do both with cards and with tarot's design, it shows itself to be primarily a bardic artifact, surely showing also, though, the bardic tradition's gains from its exposure to its Judaic cousin.
Umbrae
okay okay okay....There’s a ton of worthless verbiage here…
The question remains.
What PROOF is there, that ANY alphabet – was the ORIGIN of the Tarot, keeping in mind – the Tarot consists of 52 + 26 cards.
26 cards added to the 52 card deck does not constitute proof btw.
As Clara Peller once said, “Where’s the beef?”
So once again – what proof is there, that any alphabet was the originating factor in the invention of Tarot (bardic, hebrew, whatever)?
The question remains.
What PROOF is there, that ANY alphabet – was the ORIGIN of the Tarot, keeping in mind – the Tarot consists of 52 + 26 cards.
26 cards added to the 52 card deck does not constitute proof btw.
As Clara Peller once said, “Where’s the beef?”
So once again – what proof is there, that any alphabet was the originating factor in the invention of Tarot (bardic, hebrew, whatever)?
le pendu
VB,
I've updated the tarotpedia table with the additional info, and ready for the remaining letters. Then I think correspondences to hebrew? Would also be great to have samples of the graphic letterforms. Is that available somewhere?
I've updated the tarotpedia table with the additional info, and ready for the remaining letters. Then I think correspondences to hebrew? Would also be great to have samples of the graphic letterforms. Is that available somewhere?
DianeOD
"The tarot consists.."
The tarot consists of 40 + 16 + originally a number of additional figures.
We don't know how many, originally.
But by about a century (give or take) after we begin hearing of them spreading more widely in Europe, the number apparently settles into 22.
The tarot consists of 40 + 16 + originally a number of additional figures.
We don't know how many, originally.
But by about a century (give or take) after we begin hearing of them spreading more widely in Europe, the number apparently settles into 22.
DianeOD
"The tarot consists.."
The tarot consists of 40 + 16 + some number of additional figures.
We don't know how many, originally. There are still disputes about whether the Atout-type of figure was set on card in 1440, or whether a tarot-type of deck had existed in parallel from the start.
Those from what is called the "Dummett-de Paulis" school of thought believe the former, saying the Atouts were simply added to amuse a few of the nobility, round about the 1400s or so.
Others - and I agree with them - think otherwise.
But certainly about a century (or so) after we begin hearing of cards and card-use spreading more widely through Europe, the number for Atouts does seem to settle at 22. It is notable that our earliest handmade cards contain no devil - and most contain no tower. I don't think it right to simply assume that our present 22-card Atout is the original. And this is because the non-devil, non-tower series is not only the earliest remaing, but one that is more internally coherent. To suppose that Atouts in later packs must have been 'lost' from earlier ones is not the same as supposing that a pack without a knave of cups always had one. .. I can just *feel* this statement causing trouble.
The tarot consists of 40 + 16 + some number of additional figures.
We don't know how many, originally. There are still disputes about whether the Atout-type of figure was set on card in 1440, or whether a tarot-type of deck had existed in parallel from the start.
Those from what is called the "Dummett-de Paulis" school of thought believe the former, saying the Atouts were simply added to amuse a few of the nobility, round about the 1400s or so.
Others - and I agree with them - think otherwise.
But certainly about a century (or so) after we begin hearing of cards and card-use spreading more widely through Europe, the number for Atouts does seem to settle at 22. It is notable that our earliest handmade cards contain no devil - and most contain no tower. I don't think it right to simply assume that our present 22-card Atout is the original. And this is because the non-devil, non-tower series is not only the earliest remaing, but one that is more internally coherent. To suppose that Atouts in later packs must have been 'lost' from earlier ones is not the same as supposing that a pack without a knave of cups always had one. .. I can just *feel* this statement causing trouble.
