"standard" imagery across TDM versions in pips?

Looking at various versions of TdM I'd say there are more similarities than Differences in the Trumps...that is to say, they are pretty much made to look like one another in a general sense. You could say they were "clones" of one another and this makes them all TdM.

I'm wondering if there is standard layout for the vines and blossoms across the minors from version to version....obviously they are drawn/etched/engraved by different people..but do the vines grow in similar patterns...

For example, in my 7 of cups (Burdel) there are 3 cups at the top, 3 at the bottom, and 1 in the center. There is a pair of stems that seem to eminate from the center cup on the bottom and wrap/embrace the central cup...then they "fork" as they rise to the top row, and their uppermost leaves sort of flank or frame the central cup in the top row. I'm wondering if that pattern is the the same across all or most of the TdM variants, or is it far from standardized? What about the gemoetric layout of the pips?

I thought I posted a reply last night. But I can't find it anywhere. Here goes another try:

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the pattern of the ornamental work surrounding the pips in the various TdMs. Certainly I've seen variation in other qualities of those framing and filling elements. But that's not a part of the design I pay a lot of attention to. Some, but not a lot.

But there is a variation in the geometric layout of the coins in the Piatnik TdM that bugs me. Other Marseille decks show the Seven of Coins as what I usually think of as the quincunx on wheels. You can also see it as a triangle pointing to a square, or a triangle inside a rectangle.

The Piatnik, on the other hand, arranges the coins in an hourglass shape: two triangles pointing towards the center, where they are connected by a single coin. I prefer the more standard arrangement, partly because I'm used to it and partly because I can see it so many different ways. With the Piatnik I see an hourglass or two triangles aimed at each other, and that's pretty much it.

Very interesting question!

My Dodal has the same 7 cups as you decribed it. I would guess that decks from the same region and time (approximately) should have fairly similar pips, but I am travelling rigt now and don't have access to my other decks. Will look at them when I'm home - and I think it would be extremely interesting to see which pip cards are the most different among the decks and which are relatively similar in a wider variety of decks.

where I'm going with this is that I sort of see my technique of reading the pips as breaking down the images into geometric number groups...for example, the 7 of cups is a 3, and a 3 with a 1 in the middle. Two very creative people meeting and "dreaming" up a new idea...but one of them is painting a picture for the other...drawing them in. This is based on
1. the RWS (later tradition) of Dreaming/fantasy
2. the element/suit/number water...intuition, fantasy...cups...imagination/heart creativity...number...7...creativity..but also 3 and 3..very creative "birthers" who are building (3) something new (the one in the middle...)
3.the vines..which eminate from the "person" (3 at the bottom of the card) wrap/embrace the cup in the middle, and then reach out and "beckon" to the other creative person (3 at the top of the card). So I'm sort of getting it all in there.

Ok...so that beeing seen/said, intuitively in that particular reading...I wonder if that whole image crosses over to other decks, or if it's a new ballgame if you are reading, say with the Grimaud or Jodorewski/Camoin or some other.

Not that some other fascinating meaning wouldn't arise.

What I love about reading pips (this coming from a well established RWS reader) is that these meanings I'm coming up with are more than just intuitive/off the cuff...they are based in number/element/kabbalah pythagorean theory as well, as being intuitive "finger painting".

What fun!

Pips rock!

I love the pips and have spent a lot of time comparing them across various decks. Yes, there seems to be a standard pattern for the placement of the pip symbols. The basic pattern of the ornamental vegetation is usually similar across decks, but leaves can be heavier, or stems thicker in certain decks, changing the emphasis in the geometry. I pay a lot of attention to leaves and flowers as they seem to be signalling in a very expressive way.

The 7 of Cups seems to have more variation than most pips. The design you described, where the eye is led up the center of the card to the top cup, seems to be the most common. But in the 1JJ Swiss, the center cup is surrounded by a circle of leaves and flowers that completely isolates it from the other cups. In the Visconti Sforza deck, the odd cup stands at the top center of the card.

The 6 of Coins has three variations that I can see: 1) a central square of 4 coins with a coin centered at the top and bottom of the square; 2) two sets of 3 coins making two triangles in mirror image at top and bottom of the card; 3) two vertical rows of 3 coins each.

The Burdel 4 of Coins is distinguished by having the shield, crown, trumpets and bird in the center. A few other decks have discreet shields, but nothing as over-the-top as Burdel.

These are the pips that stick out has having the most variety. The 1JJ Swiss is often the odd one out when it comes to grouping the pips and making a geometric pattern.

sherryl

Thanks for that. That's what I was wondering...but now I can't remember why I was wondering!

Oh yes....as i'm learning more meanings (from myself really) that lie OUTSIDE the pale of RWS "orthodoxy"....I find that many of them --the new meanings-- are coming up from the geometric arrangement of pips and the greenery in between. I started wondering if this would all change when I read a different TdM.

I guess it doesn't matter...the new meanings are coming just fine...no hinderence to reading these....and AMONG the meanings are the standard meanings i've come to know from RWS...but I'm not limited to them by the picture.

Of course, the pictures also present new meanings as well...I'm not sure if they do AS OFTEN, but they definately do...you know..."hm! Never known that card to mean THAT before...but there it is!"

It's always the CONTEXT of the story and the person that I'm reading for...that assigns the meaning. And I'm never afraid to go far afield to pick up the meaning.

Nevertheless, if the picture isn't there, then it's easier for the sitter to follow me to the meaning I'm laying out....If I swerve from what would normally be pictorally represented there.

Intuition is fun...and a little scary! There's a little voice somewhere in the back of my left brain that's saying "this is not possible...you shouldn't be able to do this...you are making it up....snake oil! SNAKE OIL!!!"

I just just throw that little voice a caramel...he gets stuck up on chewing it...then he doesn't bother me anymore.

Mallah, I have only five pips decks of the Marseille type. I haven't compared all of them in detail, but generally preferring the Conver-based decks, I take as my personal standard the elegant Grimaud-Marteau reconstruction. (This preference may change after I receive my CBD deck.) I corellate the pips with the trumps (using base 5 modular arithmetic for numerological extensions and reductions), but I am never perfectly sure how (and whether) to interpret the pips' geometrical designs and floral embellishments. This thread has made me think more about this. Thanks!