"venetian tarot" : Gumppenberg or not ?

Hello,

I recently received this fac simile by Fournier :

described as "Venetian Tart Cards, Italy, XVIIIth century"
the back of the cards shows an engraving of a fool on the world and reads "MILANO" at the bottom (so I guess the "venetian" term is an historical classification rather than the deck's origin)

Kaplan shows this deck in Encyclopedia volume I page 154 and describes it as F.Gumppenberg's production and dates it "late 18th or early 19th".



But the "usual" Gumppenberg is quite different (the animal on the fool shows his head, the III doesn't have the words "tarocco fino", etc... see http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarocco_Gumppenberg and http://www.arnellart.com/osvaldo/taro-cl-gumppenberg.htm ), so is it Gumppenberg's ?
I'm also curious about the dating (18th century when other Gumppenberg deck are more often dated early 19th as - following tarotpedia quoting Osvaldo Menegazzi - Gumppenberg arrived in Milan in 1809)

So are Kaplan attribution and dating correct ? Is Menegazzi 1809 date accurate ? Whose deck is it and when was it made ?

Thanks,

Bertrand

it looks like this kind of deck was the standard for the lombardo-veneto tarot in the early XIX cent. (in that period lombardy and veneto were the same region, under Austrian control).
In some entries it is in fact called Venetian tarot, in some other Lombardy tarot.
I suppose that Gumppenberg simply reproduced this well-known style with some variation. So I guess it's not a Gumppenberg original. But it's just my 0.01c here

moreover Giordano Berti in "Antichi Tarocchi Lombardi" seems to suggest that the only original Gumppenberg creations were the "Tarocco con vedute e mestieri di Milano" (ca. 1820), the Tarocco della Rocca (soprafino - ca. 1830) and the "Tarocco della Corona Ferrea" (1838).
Hope this helps

Hello

and thank you l'appeso.
So the "guppenberg" as distributed by Il Meneghello and De Vecchi must be a relatively close copy of this pattern or they are based on the same model, and either Kaplan's attribution or dating are wrong - or as I understand it at least one is wrong if not both, if it's Gumppenberg then it's not XVIIIth, if it's XVIIIth then it's not Gumppenberg.

I'll stick to Museo Fournier's dating, and will suppose it's of an unknown cardmaker until further evidences may be found.

Bertrand

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarocco_Gumppenberg

here it says tarocco gumppenberg is from 1840, so it looks like a late edition of an already well-known standard. there's no mention of whom was the engraver, so one must assume it was an anonymous design (no copyright matters back then!).

Giordano Berti says that Gumppenberg came to Milan from Munich to work at the "Regia Fabbrica" in 1809 aged 21, so all of his decks should be dated between 1809 and 1846 (year of death).

Then in 1814 after the Regia Fabbrica had been closed down he started his own business...

Here is information from Il Solleone, who reproduced Italian tarocco and tarocchinos

and researched cardmaker information extensively:


http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=85534&page=2

I believe the information is more detailed in the link above and you can see more exact dating. The publisher Vito Arienti' of Ill Solleone had information in Italian that gave more detail in their different reproductions noted in the notes.

Best regards,

Cerulean

l'appeso said:

moreover Giordano Berti in "Antichi Tarocchi Lombardi" seems to suggest that the only original Gumppenberg creations were the "Tarocco con vedute e mestieri di Milano" (ca. 1820), the Tarocco della Rocca (soprafino - ca. 1830) and the "Tarocco della Corona Ferrea" (1838).
Hope this helps

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