About Ophiuchus the 13th sign

Minderwiz

Attempt at rescued post - Part 3

Minderwiz said:
Fully agree about those uses. However, do the people you refer to not use signs rather than constellations. I remember you referring me to an article on this, in which it was quite clear that 30 degree equal segments were used, even though the author chose to call them constellations, they were in effect signs.
Yeah but they postulate the existence of beings within these constellations. If one looks carefully at the material, their sky maps, astro charts and planting guides one can see that although their system IS devided into 12 equal segment unnatural zones, within this are diagrams of the actual constellations with the rlevent space either side of the CONSTELLATION BOUNDARY.There is research within the organisation to claify these boundaries of influence within a constellational area. This is done by, eg. a ceratin plant is recorded to commence flowering when a specific planet is in a specif sign [I said that on purpose as one can find it in their literature but they MEAN constellation and sign is a (confusing for some) convenience (I believe MOST dont know the diff anyway]. they watch the planet, track the sky and observe the plant. when changes are seen in the plant the planits position is noticed (in the actuall sky) as information builds up they hope to construct some more accurate boundaries and dates. I know it LOOKS like a sign but when examines the literature the theory is deffinatly constellational, even though they are bordered by equal segments. Its a work in progress, and that's what I like about it.
Minderwiz said:
Now I've thrown a few challenges back there but the problem is the tantelising lack of evidence from so long ago. All we can do is build theories about what may have happened. An attempt to rationalise the past.
Not just that but an attempt to understand the past, it need not be rational, but it should be rational according to its OWN precepts (which may not be rational outside the box). That can also help us understand some inherited traditions, dispell some ghosts and graft new discovers onto ancient 'wisdom'.
Minderwiz said:
We also need to bear in mind that precession is not a step change it's a contiuous change, slowly to be sure but it is noticable over a long time. Hence the messiness of cultural changes. It's perhaps (and I stress 'perhaps') an phenomenon that led to myths of a fall, as the position of constellations in the sky changed. The introduction to Bernadette Brady's book on Fixed Stars is quite interesting from that point of view.

From Minderwiz

This is as much as I could recover. I'm not sure whether it is complete so if there was more, you may need to try and recreate it. The only thing I can think of as the problem is the sheer length of the post. It might have been better to try putting it in two or three posts. But that's with hindsight.
 

Minderwiz

Reply to rescued post part 1

I don't think there's much to separate us here. Yes, I can see and understand your point about things taking on a life of their own, and even agree with it. I suppose the only comment I would make is that this is humans doing their usual anthropomorphic thing.

My point on asterisms is that Orion just doesn't exist if looke at from somewhere else, not that it looks different.

Sorry the comment on you grasping the difference between constellations and signs was tongue in cheek and I should have made that clear.

I don't have any problems with magical traditions or your split personality between science and Magic. I share that one.

I think one issue that has not been made clear is the nature of influence and can something 'influence' even though it is passive? I'd certainly agree that SOME constellations as human constructs have become incorporated into human belief systems and as such might influence the way that humans perceive the world around them. However I don't see any active influence in the sense of 'radiations' or what ever you choose to call emanations from the constellations, effecting human behaviour.
 

Minderwiz

Reply to recovered post Part 2

The Golden Dawn is too big an issue to go into in any depth but I agree with your admission that they are not mainstream, indeed they are an extreme minority in terms of Astrology. Now that is not to say that they should be ignored - I personally find them extremely interesting. Similarly the hermetic tradition is a minority one - though culturally of importance. However whether the hermetic tradition is a 'medieval' invention is an open question LOL

My point being that there may not be any real continuity in the hermetic view. It's possible that it is simply a romantic view of the 'golden age' which never existed. Or again they may have something.

I confess pure ignorance on Aboriginal beliefs so I just don't have the competence to comment on that part of your answer.
 

Minderwiz

Reply to recovered post Part 3

My only comment on the planting theorists is that they are deeply confused in trying to do two things at the same time, use signs and use constellations. I haven't the time here to check your interpretation so I might be doing them an injustice. At least they only use 12 divisions so they too don't think much of Ophiuchus LOL

Planting of anything is Earth bound and depends strongly on the cycle of seasons. Some plants are winter, most are spring and summer. Try planting them out of season to verify that. So success or otherwise is more likely to be seasonal. Though I agree that Moon cycles are also important. I would also guess that a winter plant in the Northern Hemisphere is a winter plant in the Southern, which would mean it 'flowers' under different signs or constellations if it is moved from one to the other. Also I'm assuming equal but opposite latitudes here.


Yes we do rationalise the past, and try to understand. The problem to overcome is our own frames of reference may be major obstacles and the reasoning process we employ is quite different from that even 500 years ago let alone 3,000 years ago. Getting into the minds of those ancients is a major challenge and it has to be done on limited evidence.

That is by no means to say that we shouldn't try. I think we should. Just don't accept it as any stronger than a working hypothesis.

One final comment. It's also worth noting that the constellations are human constructs and as such did not spring ready made into the heavens. Many of those in the Southern Hemisphere are of very recent origin.

The boundaries between constellations are very messy - indeed it's as late as the 1920s that the boudaries were settled. Just in time for Astronomers to abandon them altogether LOL.

SOME constellations though have played a great role in human culture and I fully acknowledge that. What I challenge is that they have any active influence. Indeed as they only exist in the minds of men and women, it is extremely unlikely that they do. But that mental perception may well have influenced human behaviour to a very significant extent at certain periods of human cultural development.

We may not share the same approach but I think these last few posts have shown that the foundations of Astrology, are worthy of some debate.
 

ravenest

dadsnook2000 said:
The "zodiac" that many on this list use, isn't defined by the stars above, but instead by the wobble of the Earth's poles, the tilt of those poles relative to our orbit about the Sun, and Aries Point which marks one of the two times each year when the poles are perpendicular to the Sun and solar system plane.
[This is part of the posting I couldnt do:]
I dont understand this at all. How can the pole become perpendicual to the Sun (?) and the plane of the Solar System at those points? When it is tilted at approx 23 degrees all the rest of the year, This would negate the seasons if it was a graduall change and cause absolute catastrophe on earth if it was a sudden change.

MY understanding is that the pole stays at 23 deg tilt with the tilt always in the one direction, the direction of the tilt is what is rotating and that takes 36.000 years approx (doesnt it?) to make one revolution.

If one was on the Sun and could see the line of tilted axis it would appear 23 deg at equinoxs but at Solstices would appear vertical as one is looking straight at it, the top would be further away at winter (for north hemisphere) and the bottom closer for the summer in the south hemisphere and visa versa at the opposite solstice.

Does that make sense? If not, get a stick, bend it and look sideways at it, see the bend? Now turn it 45 degrees and the stick 'looks' straight, (its an old Uri Geller spoon bending trick - just rub the spoon for effect as you slowly and imperceptibly turn it)

Still dont get it? Then go to any juniour school atlas which will have a diagram of the seasons, the sun, the tilted axis,on 4 earths in each position and a simple explaination of how it works.

This one really stumped me and I cant nut out Dave Daddsnook's reasoning (unless he is heliocentric :laugh: ... or maybe born with the Sun in (constellation) of Leo ?
[just joking Dave.]
 

ravenest

I also missed being able to post any references to what I said earlier in relation to WHY I believe there is a system that works with the constellations and star groups that give energy to earth (via the Sun and Planets and their relationships - ie. a part of the Solar system infront of a constellation) remembering these systems are NOT mainstream.

"But this rule shall NOT for one moment affirm ... that the nature of the Sun is not modified by THE CONSTELLATION in which he is."
(ie, the Sun's energy is modified by what constellation it is in)
The Hermetic Order of Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie (Llewellyn) - The Paper; 'The Law of the Convoluted Forces ...' p 241.

"(This) Zodiac is the division of the star maps into 12 sectors through which the Sun travells. These are the PHYSICAL STARS that can be observed with your NAKED EYE."
Biodynamic Astro calendar 2007 back page.

"We could picture the constellations as consonants of the Universal Language and the planets as the vowels. The continuing varing relationships of the planetary vowels to each other against changing stella background brings about a rich speaking of the STARS FORM GIVING FORCES INTO EARTHLY EXPRESSION."
Intro to Astro calendar 2008.
{Empahsis added}
(This system of astrology is a development of Steiners esoteric astrology which is based on a cosmological theory that is a blend of Copernicus -Heilocentric and Tycho Brahe - - who postulated a dual centre with both earth and sun rotating around each other. Stiener postulates both centres moving in a path through space in the form of a lemniscating spiral.)

As far as using a geocentric tool, even if it extends as far as one can imagine to include all visible stars which make up a constellation is no more absurd, geocentric or egotistical than the concept of the Christian God, Genisis, the garden of Eden etc etc, But those stories hold a wealth of magical and occult symbolism which can be utalised by very intillegent people.

I agree however with both Dave and Mindy that it does seem fanciful (and probably is), that a constellation or star group ( or asterism if you prefer - I see Rosemary Clarke prefers that term when discussing sacred Egyptian astronomy) has an ID or spirit that influences things on earth. But consider this interesting paradox (and I am not claiming it is proof, but think it interesting in that):
How do we explain attribution of a whole set of ideas and things in one section of the sky when it is very simiar to another culture and the two never had contact,
Eg the aboriginal story of the formation of the stars we call Scorpio is such a 'scorpionic' story; sex, wierd sex actually, breaking of mores and taboos, secrecy, lies, spying, a flight or escape and persuit across the earth followed by a flight up into the sky (scorpion / eagle) - I think I posted elsewhere about this in more depth?

(part 1 .... I dont want to break anything :laugh: )
 

ravenest

In one region of the sky is the area and star pattern known to Euros as Corvus - the Raven. The Wardaman people of north Australia attribute this same area to waag-waag the Crow.
(I'm sure someone will point out that a crow isnt a raven :rolleyes:)
What Euros call Cygnus the swan is called Barag-barag by the Wardaman culture -the cormorant, Guardian of the North.
Aquila, the eagle companion of Zeuss is Gulyan, the wedge tailed eagle for many northern aboriginal cultures while in the south they call it Totyarguil, the eagle who guards totemic laws and ceremonies.

They dont all match of course, Pegasus the fyling horse is Merlemerle the butterfly. But lets rememeber, the aboriginals had never seen a horse.

In the Euro sky is also Parvo the peacock and the Pheonix. Some may find it interesting that all the Euro birds above represent significant stages in alchemy and can be linked together for meaning.

The initatory traditions of Austraila definatly link all the parts of the sky together and make a greater story and stages of processes. One can also do it with a modern constellational map.

At present I am trying to find a book (in my storage - where most of my refrence material is) that outlines a british astro system that predates greek roman, it is claimed that the large ground drawings spread through some parts of the british isles are this old horoscope, and again all the characters in this horoscope fit together and tella greater story.

I havent got these ideas through my wacky imaginations or one source reference or book, they have been developed over time from different now scattered sources, traditions I have been interested in or initiated into and talking with people - the aboriginals - although Wardaman Star Lore can be encountered in 'Dark Sparklers" (sorry forgot the author) a very complex book, dont think their system will be simple primative or easy, their kinship systems are academicaslly known to be the most complex in the world!

There is a much bigger side to this where these beings are contacted, but I wont be raving about that here (I dont want to get speared in the leg ;) )

But it IS out there, it is an old idea .... and that is where I got my ideas from.
 

firecatpickles

ravenest said:
I dont understand this at all. How can the pole become perpendicual to the Sun (?) and the plane of the Solar System at those points? When it is tilted at approx 23 degrees all the rest of the year, This would negate the seasons if it was a graduall change and cause absolute catastrophe on earth if it was a sudden change.

I believe he was talking about the migration of the equinoxes. A slight wobble does not equate to the earth's axis becoming parallel to the sun:

http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/precession_of_the_equinoxes.jsp
 

dadsnook2000

Basic Equinox understanding.

Picture holding one of those plastic triangles that school kids use. Picture your kitchen or dining room table having a large circle (Earth's orbit) drawn upon it with a vase of flowers in the middle of the table (the Sun). Now, select a window or a door or a picture on the wall---this will represent a fixed point in the universe, outside of our orbit. Then follow these steps.

** Hold the triangle upright with one edge resting on the circle on the table. The angled edge pointing upward will represent the tilted axis of Earth even though it doesn't match the 23.5 degree tilt.
** Pivot the upright triangle upon its lower edge (that is touching the table top and the circle) such that the tilted edge points/aligns with the selected target (window, doorway, picture).
** Move the triangle such that you follow the circle on the table, always making sure that the tilted edge of the triangle is pointed at the target (window, picture, doorway).
** At some points the tilted edge will align with both the Sun and the target. This will be summer for the northern hemisphere.
** Moving around the circle on the table top another 90 degrees or a quarter circle, you will reach a point where the tilted edge of the triangle points to the target while the vase of flowers is 90 degrees to the side. This is a solstice point.
** You will discover two solstice points (where the Sun, target and tilted edge of the triangle are all in line) and two equinox points at 90 degrees to those points where the flat side of the triangle is perpendicular to the vase of flowers (Sun).

Upon completing the movement of the triangle about the circle, always keeping the tilted edge of the triangle aligned with the target, you should have noticed that when you passed a point of either side of the circle where the triangle was a right angles to the vase/flowers in the middle of the table. The flat sides of the triangle would have been square/90 degrees relative to the vase and the target. AT THOSE TWO POINTS, THE AXIS OF THE EARTH (THE TILTED EDGE OF THE TRIANGLE), now looking at the flat side of the triangle, WAS SQUARE TO THE SUN (THE VASE). This would be/represent the two equinox points, spring and/or fall.

Although the wobble of the Earth's axis is a reality, it is a really, really slow wobble. From year to year we can treat it as fixed relative to its tilt towards any far distant reference point.

In my opinion, all who wish to study astrology are doing themselves the greatest disservice if they don't study and understand the basics of astronomy first. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Well I'm not as skilled as Dave when it comes to the celetial mechanics but as I understand it.

Earth's poles are at right angles to Earths's Equator.

At the Equinoxes, the Sun appears to move from the Southern Hemisphere into the Northern (and Vice Versa). That is at the equinoxes the Sun appears to lie on Earth's Equator (The Equator and the Ecliptic are conincident at those points)

As Earth's poles are perpendicular to the equator, they must AT THOSE TWO POINTS be perpendicular to the Ecliptic and by extension to the Sun.

Now Dave will correct me if I've over simplified LOL but I think that's the gist of it.