Tendril: Their Will Be Dreams

@ Holmes

+O+ Perhaps knowing who we are will shed some light on the matter for you.

http://www.wix.com/mvimaedivm/ryananschauung#!articles

hmm

i see what you are saying, that people who get your tarot should study who you are, and that will help you undersand it..

for me though the artwork should stand on its own and be easy to discern for when we read with it..
i realize your soverign sketch is still a work in progress (at least it looks like it from the sketch ) so that is constructive criticism there
i do love a deck that comes with a big book that tells the background of a card yet in those cases like the wizards tarot, vampire tarot, bohemthian gothic tarot (just ones off the top of my head with a nice book ),robin wood tarot,,
the artwork was easily discernable.
i think because you expect us to know what is going on due to who you are,, you should plan on writing a big huge book for it, if you get a mass publisher.

so if you are hinting it is the devil by all means show it more so it is easy to make out what you are saying.

i am still looking forward to seeing what the finished product will look like, and seeing how the soverign card will turn out !

i see what you are saying, that people who get your tarot should study who you are, and that will help you undersand it..

+O+ Yes. The Temple of THEM has a huge body of work written over decades by a fairly small but dedicated group of occultists with access to world experts on different fields. +O+

for me though the artwork should stand on its own and be easy to discern for when we read with it..

+O+ Within Context that is true - but if one approaches our Tarot with the Judaic-Nazarene matrix then they are bound to either react as you have done or realize they require learning the Sinister side of Tarot to appreciate the archetypes used and the subtle/overt magic employed. There is a definite lack however of artists able to express the Sinister and therefore a definite niche of individuals who desire such a deck and who understand such a deck. Arcana are but fractals made relevent through context - they express universal forces in an individual way - like Emanations or the Naos Deck the Sinister requires the development of empathy with those forces to make them clear - sadly, the Judaic Mysticism seeks and has sought to cloud that empathy with its obscurantist symbolism - so much so - that alternatives to its magical system are for the most part unknown or under-developed. +O+


i realize your soverign sketch is still a work in progress (at least it looks like it from the sketch ) so that is constructive criticism there

+O+ http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.125375667588735.19768.100003489088615&type=1

You will find more images here in my facebook folder marked Tendril - and additional comments inc. a more finished version of Sovereign. +O+

i do love a deck that comes with a big book that tells the background of a card yet in those cases like the wizards tarot, vampire tarot, bohemthian gothic tarot (just ones off the top of my head with a nice book ),robin wood tarot,,
the artwork was easily discernable.

+O+ Most people do. But the Sinister teaches magical skill through harsh adversity, the requirement of study, effort, determination, practical experience and struggle - it does not hand its secrets over easily. +O+

i think because you expect us to know what is going on due to who you are,, you should plan on writing a big huge book for it, if you get a mass publisher.

+O+ We have a publisher - whether we will write a huge book for it is yet to be decided. In some regards, we see it a necessity to inform others of the symbolism, its history, reason for employment, magical meanings etc - but overdone, with every little numinous piece of depiction extracted from its holistic grace, torn apart for profane vultures to pick at the bones without using the Tarot, speaking with it, communing with their own projections, harnessing greater consciousness of their own accord - there is merely dead lecture - the student learns Nothing - and we are not in the habit of teaching nothing. It's not everyone's cup of tea - but then magic rarely is. +O+

so if you are hinting it is the devil by all means show it more so it is easy to make out what you are saying.

+O+ It is interesting that you see the Devil - Tarot, are like Rorschach... what is really there but an assembly of scratches made with a lead pencil - a blur of points from which you extract the Devil. I understand the desire for people to be spoonfed every icon and for high concepts to be smashed down into manageable chunks - but I do not agree with it. +O+

i am still looking forward to seeing what the finished product will look like, and seeing how the soverign card will turn out !

+O+ So am I - it and many other cards, are still works in progress.

Ryan said:

+O+ We have a publisher - whether we will write a huge book for it is yet to be decided. In some regards, we see it a necessity to inform others of the symbolism, its history, reason for employment, magical meanings etc - but overdone, with every little numinous piece of depiction extracted from its holistic grace, torn apart for profane vultures to pick at the bones without using the Tarot, speaking with it, communing with their own projections, harnessing greater consciousness of their own accord - there is merely dead lecture - the student learns Nothing - and we are not in the habit of teaching nothing. It's not everyone's cup of tea - but then magic rarely is. +O+

Click to expand...

Now that is a different point of view and I can see that. I find demands for dissection of the cards to be odd and while I do need some background, especially for a deck like this with a philosophy barely glimpsed by outsiders, it certainly won't need to be 'ripped apart' for its soul to be seen.

ah

"magic rarely is"

I see now i think (let me know if i am right ) that the soverign card and micheal being trapped there in the sketch refers to the casting of magick and getting angels to do your bidding eh ?.

I don't go to facebook to view updates, for that takes us away from atf, i mean if a person posts an original here on the forum, they should in my opnion post the updated version as some of us don't like using facebook for that,, or possibly dont' have facebook. (lots of people around here have deactivated fb, or rarely go on ).

i looked up your website,, and saw chaos,, and that is something i dont' follow magicks trying to stay true to my spiritual path.
and so i am wasn't asking to be spoonfed,, i was just asking what was going on the original sketch,, it was obiviously more then just a few points of lines.
and i would prefer it that you post any updated versions here in the thread for it keeps the purpose of the thread you started here.

edited to add
with that being said , i still look forward to updates on your thread that you make. "

edited to further add
there are of course as you may know, two kinds of decks,, the tarot deck which is designed around the tarot system etc,, and the artist deck,, which is beutiful artwork usually based on a tarot design.
i would say there is the third kind of deck, the specalized deck like the enochian tarot as an example

as long as you keep the artwork beautiful (which it will be ) and true to the tarot 78 system (as close as you can ) so it reads well,, you will get a lot of people buying your deck who need not know anything about the system that you are eschewing in the deck.

so what i am trying to say is though your deck is fashioned in your mind to those who know your system, or want to learn it..
there are those of us who will buy it just for the graphics/artwork,, and so in the imagery we need to be spoonfed a little bit to help us understand the deck.

then later on when people asks questions about the deeper symbolism,, you could point them to the book.. (even if you dont' write a book, you should have a book on your webpage , as from the war of minds sketch there will be a lot of symbolism in your deck so you may have to write the book of thoth but for the book of your religion/system).
that way you save yourself on answering little questions after the deck is released

@ Alta - very well said.

"magic rarely is"

@ Holmes

I see now i think (let me know if i am right ) that the soverign card and micheal being trapped there in the sketch refers to the casting of magick and getting angels to do your bidding eh ?.

+O+ You can keep guessing or you can Know. To Know takes work. You were given a link and I think that was a fair contribution from myself and you should do the rest. You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the Temple of THEM which does not use protective circles, banishing rites, or possess a human-centred egotism that dares to dream it can control the forces of THEM that we represent. +O+

I don't go to facebook to view updates, for that takes us away from atf, i mean if a person posts an original here on the forum, they should in my opnion post the updated version as some of us don't like using facebook for that,, or possibly dont' have facebook. (lots of people around here have deactivated fb, or rarely go on ).

+O+ They may suit themselves just as I will. +O+

i looked up your website,, and saw chaos,, and that is something i dont' follow magicks trying to stay true to my spiritual path.

+O+ You are precisely the kind of individual who will never understand the Sinister because you expect immediate all-knowing results without ever doing anything to earn them. Like the Philosophers Stone - it will always be out of reach and you, as you say below, will only be able to appreciate this deck for its aesthetics. +O+

and so i am wasn't asking to be spoonfed,, i was just asking what was going on the original sketch,, it was obiviously more then just a few points of lines.

+O+ You don't think of yourself as asking to be spoonfed, but when given a link to ourcurrent to investigate for yourself you refused to read it and then came to ask me more questions you could have answered yourself. So, you're still asking to be spoonfed -in other words, food [for thought] was dumped on your plate but you refused to eat it yourself. THEM teaches the expansion of consciousness. It's not pleasant, it's not personal, it's business, and it's the only way. And there is no compromise. +O+

and i would prefer it that you post any updated versions here in the thread for it keeps the purpose of the thread you started here.

+O+ Would you? +O+

edited to add
with that being said , i still look forward to updates on your thread that you make. "

edited to further add
there are of course as you may know, two kinds of decks,, the tarot deck which is designed around the tarot system etc,, and the artist deck,, which is beutiful artwork usually based on a tarot design.

+O+ I don't think you understand Tarot very well to be honest, Holmes. I don't think you have researched its history, the history of magic, symbolism, or the historical background of the Judaic Mysticism from which it comes. Do you even know the culture that spawned the Tree before the Jewish Scribes to which it is later fitted and attributed spheres from its connection to the 32 names of YHVH? +O+

i would say there is the third kind of deck, the specalized deck like the enochian tarot as an example

as long as you keep the artwork beautiful (which it will be ) and true to the tarot 78 system (as close as you can ) so it reads well,, you will get a lot of people buying your deck who need not know anything about the system that you are eschewing in the deck.

+O+ So I should hide my beliefs under the rug and pass my Tarot off as a Golden Dawn replica that aspires to replicate all of the terrible flaws of monotheistic egotistic perception, arbitrary attributions now encased in stone as a dogma that refuses to acknowledge its own short-comings [like many humans], continue to mask and feed the world its own shallow consciousness enshrined in ego so that nothing changes and everything remains the stale same, creating individuals who do not know anything more than what is put in front of them, never exercise their own creativity, imagination, genius, madness or nous; commerically cheapen, falsely market, spiritually strip TENDRIL of its numinous meanings, its background of years of research, its potential to inspire people to think for themselves and evolve beyond the mushroom state - all to sell more copies of my Tarot? +O+

so what i am trying to say is though your deck is fashioned in your mind to those who know your system, or want to learn it..
there are those of us who will buy it just for the graphics/artwork,, and so in the imagery we need to be spoonfed a little bit to help us understand the deck.

+O+ And a little bit you have been. +O+

then later on when people asks questions about the deeper symbolism,, you could point them to the book..

+O+ Or a website... +O+

(even if you dont' write a book, you should have a book on your webpage , as from the war of minds sketch there will be a lot of symbolism in your deck so you may have to write the book of thoth but for the book of your religion/system).
that way you save yourself on answering little questions after the deck is released :

+O+ Oh yes. That worked really well when I pointed you in the right direction toward information, didn't it Holmes. LOL. +O+

Ah yes

well for a tarot reader asking what is actually going on a sketch (that you have already changed or improved ) is far differnt then looking for the meanings in your philopshy.

i actually didnt' misunderstand, or understood the temple,, i asked if that is what was going on in the card, far differnt .

nah, i didn't expect all knowing results,, i thought you were showing me a link to the card history, meaning, i saw chaos and said why do i need to know all this just to ask what was on the card.

the proof of my understanding the tarot is in my reading where the test lies. i did decide long ago on the forum that i never would understand all the historic talk that is going on here on the forum. example of that is the arguement that the tarot doenst' come from the tree of life, but rather was forced upon that system by mystics, trying to get it to fit same as astrology etc.

you shouldn't hide your beliefs,, make it in the open !
in fact the satanic tendril tarot makes more sense, for you want people to know what is being brought.
it is up to you how much you want your deck to work for those who pick it up without knowning any of the philophsy of what you believe.
ust in the little white book we all want descriptions of what is going on.

"Oh yes. That worked really well when I pointed you in the right direction toward information, didn't it Holmes. LOL. +"

it sure didnt' for it didn't show me the card meanings,, just some stuff about chaos.
I looked upon the tendril and just saw this
" new Satanic Tarot underway by the Temple of THEM"
it still doesnt' tell me what was going on in the soverign card.
people will expect to know what is going on at least in a brief description which is what i was simply asking for.

well, waiting for you to post more pictures.
thanks you for taking the time out to answer my questions, and statements.
i do appreciate it and i am sure others who see your responses who may have had the same questions i have,, will as well.

re:

well for a tarot reader asking what is actually going on a sketch (that you have already changed or improved ) is far differnt then looking for the meanings in your philopshy.

+O+ Not if they want any depth. +O+

i actually didnt' misunderstand, or understood the temple,, i asked if that is what was going on in the card, far differnt .

nah, i didn't expect all knowing results,, i thought you were showing me a link to the card history, meaning, i saw chaos and said why do i need to know all this just to ask what was on the card.

+O+ I've given card history for some of them - I won't do it for all of them. +O+

the proof of my understanding the tarot is in my reading where the test lies. i did decide long ago on the forum that i never would understand all the historic talk that is going on here on the forum. example of that is the arguement that the tarot doenst' come from the tree of life, but rather was forced upon that system by mystics, trying to get it to fit same as astrology etc.

+O+ I agree - like many things the Tarot idea including structure is Arbitrary, borrowed, or stolen from earlier tribes and cultures - it is not nor came down to us as an all-knowing arrangement of memes and archetypal forces descended from omnipotent Gods who knew a secret arcane structure that must be adhered to [Crowley agrees] but is crafted from the hand of archaic men. +O+

you shouldn't hide your beliefs,, make it in the open !
in fact the satanic tendril tarot makes more sense, for you want people to know what is being brought.
it is up to you how much you want your deck to work for those who pick it up without knowning any of the philophsy of what you believe.
ust in the little white book we all want descriptions of what is going on.

+O+ Sure. +O+

"Oh yes. That worked really well when I pointed you in the right direction toward information, didn't it Holmes. LOL. +"

it sure didnt' for it didn't show me the card meanings,, just some stuff about chaos.

+O+ Since you indicated no desire to understand the history of the Tarot - or any deeper level of connections of perceptual origin, projection, human development, form, forces etc - I won't send you to any more links. +O+

I looked upon the tendril and just saw this
" new Satanic Tarot underway by the Temple of THEM"

+O+ That's not where I sent you. I sent you to the articles section. +O+

it still doesnt' tell me what was going on in the soverign card.
people will expect to know what is going on at least in a brief description which is what i was simply asking for.

+O+ I understand what you were asking for. +O+

well, waiting for you to post more pictures.
thanks you for taking the time out to answer my questions, and statements.
i do appreciate it and i am sure others who see your responses who may have had the same questions i have,, will as well.

+O+ Hm. +O+

Name changed.

+O+ Thank you Solandia! ISS +O+

Moving on...

By the way

i like your title for your new deck.