Golden Dawn and W-S Sun Comparison

Abrac

In Regardie's Complete System of Golden Dawn Magic there's the following description of The Sun, "The Sun has twelve principal rays which represent the Twelve Signs of the Zodiac. They are alternately waved and salient as symbolizing the alternation of the masculine and feminine natures."

In The Pictorial Key to the Tarot Waite says, "19. The Sun. The luminary is distinguished in older cards by chief rays that are waved and salient alternately and by secondary salient rays." He seems to be describing a card like this.

The Golden Dawn Tarot and the Waite-Smith Suns are similar to one another though they are executed differently.

Suns

I think the "Oops" line in the Waite-Smith really is an "Oops." If you fill in the top portion over the numbers, it reflects the same pattern as that directly below it. The Golden dawn has 12 wavy and 12 salient lines, and the Waite-Smith would have the same had it been completed. Pamela was probably in a hurry or thinking about something else and started to make another wavy line when she realized there had to be room for a number. Rather than try and repair it or start over she just left it. Why it was never fixed is a mystery.
 

Yelell

I think the "Oops" line in the Waite-Smith really is an "Oops." If you fill in the top portion over the numbers, it reflects the same pattern as that directly below it. The Golden dawn has 12 wavy and 12 salient lines, and the Waite-Smith would have the same had it been completed. Pamela was probably in a hurry or thinking about something else and started to make another wavy line when she realized there had to be room for a number. Rather than try and repair it or start over she just left it. Why it was never fixed is a mystery.

I have read about this in a number of threads, but until I joined this forum I never really considered it a mistake. I assumed the illustrations were drawn out first, and then when she was satisfied with them, titles and numbers added as they were adapted into cards. A number of the cards look like part of the illustration was removed or covered in order to not compete with the number. Doesn't the magician look like some greenery is missing on top? Temperance's "aura" looks shorter on top than it should be. The star and the moon both have their top rays abruptly cut off, and the lines and yellow fill in color are not there. I always figured the sun was drawn exactly as you have pictured, but then the lines and fill in color that would interfere with the number were removed and filled in with solid background color for clarity.
 

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Abrac

Now that you've mentioned I'm looking at the images, it looks like the numbers might have been added first and the images drawn second, especially the Moon and Star. Could it be she did the numbers and titles first when creating each card? If some of the Sun was removed at the top to accommodate the number, why not just remove it all, why leave one squiggly line?
 

Yelell

I don't think the numbers were first. Looking at the star card, the large star could easily have been drawn just a bit smaller, or moved down a little, if the number was already there. Instead, the top ray is cut off like room had to be made for the number after the drawing was done. As far as the squiggly line left on the sun, I guess that's just the first line not interfering with the number, so it stayed. One version doesn't have it, right?, so someone must have once thought it looked silly and removed it.

Another reason the numbers don't look drawn first is their locations on the cards. Cards like the 9 of cups and 7 of swords have so much space on top, and their numbers are big and farther down. Others like the 5 of pents and the hanged man are pushed towards the top because there's little room left for numbers after what the illustrations take up.

Take a look at the 10 of pents. That card has a dedicated border on top with the number and signature, when all of the other cards are signed near the bottom. If that border was not there, part of a pentacle would have had to be erased to make room for the number, and THAT would not be acceptable. It really makes me think the bottom of the original illustration (that had the signature) must have had to be cut off to make room for a blank spot on top to put that number, and then the card was re-signed in that top border. Maybe when she was assigned this job she wasn't told in the beginning to make room for a number at the top of some cards?
 

Abrac

I see where you're coming from. I'll admit I'm not sure about any of it at this point. By that I mean the squiggly line, the numbers, the whole thing.
 

Yelell

Sorry, I'm just being geeky. I like picking over versions of the same card with a finetooth comb looking for insignificant differences. :rolleyes: Obviously I know absolutely nothing.
 

Abrac

Here's a high-resolution pic from an original 1910 deck. The arrow points to what looks a demarcation line Pamela used to mark the center of the Sun face; it's exactly in the center of the face. She appears to have done this to get the Sun and the number lined up evenly. But the rays ended up being uneven. They're pretty much uneven all the way around. I don't understand why she would have taken so much care to get the number lined up then screw up on the rays. Whether the number came first or last, that "oops" looks like it may have been used as filler.

You can see the demarcator in the standard US Games deck under magnification but it's hard to see.

SUN PIC
 

Michael Sternbach

The Sun radiates 21 rays plus that incomplete extra ray. So I read the 21 rays as a reference to the 21 numbered Major Arcana, and the funny additional one as representing The Fool.
 

Yelell

The Sun radiates 21 rays plus that incomplete extra ray. So I read the 21 rays as a reference to the 21 numbered Major Arcana, and the funny additional one as representing The Fool.

I looked through the scans and it's the Pam B that doesn't have that squiggly line. If it were intentional then the meaning could be affected. That version has a lot of changes though.


Here's a high-resolution pic from an original 1910 deck. The arrow points to what looks a demarcation line Pamela used to mark the center of the Sun face; it's exactly in the center of the face. She appears to have done this to get the Sun and the number lined up evenly. But the rays ended up being uneven. They're pretty much uneven all the way around. I don't understand why she would have taken so much care to get the number lined up then screw up on the rays. Whether the number came first or last, that "oops" looks like it may have been used as filler.

You can see the demarcator in the standard US Games deck under magnification but it's hard to see.

SUN PIC


Taken from the Pam A pebbled from this post? http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2612440&postcount=1 It doesn't seem to be in the Pam A roses/lillies, but that image is lower resolution. I myself have trouble seeing that small mark as more than a flaw in the crude printing method, since there are so many blacks specks really all over. But then it's all speculation anyways.

Looking at her artwork in general, uneven seems to be the norm. The Moon has fatter and thinner rays, some rays where the black outline is incomplete, yods of random shape. I think her artistic style was not very precise. Honestly it's hard to decide what is significant.
 

Abrac

I agree with you. It's in the Rose & Lillie but it's fainter and looks less intentional and more random.