Lenormand; when did it become 36 cards?

lord_ewin said:

She's not a trustworthy source in my honest opinion... she definitely embellished a great deal. I think she was overcompensating for her small village upbringing by writing and writing and writing... anytime someone would opine anything against her, we'd have a book published... she's rather tiresome when it comes to it, honestly. However, I do believe she was one of the best and absolutely had some talent.

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You do get the impression of someone who is compensating a little too much. However, like you say, she was definitely one of the best: I don’t think propaganda would keep her in people’s mind after such time.

I agree with this! There are several reasons that lead me to believe so too. For one, all the greek mythology in the Grand Lenormand. She was apparently an avid fan of Greek Mythology, and she had at one point retired to get into art. What this art was, we never found out, but I do think it's possible that she was trying to create her own cards to eventually publish. The fact that the cards contain geomancy, astrology, herbology, etc, etc leads me to believe that she wanted something that would outdo everyone else's system.

Her problem was that she always saw thing very grandly, but they were always too complicated. She might have tried to have someone paint the pictures only to find out she didn't have the money... or might have tried to paint them herself, only to be turned down with the printers...

No matter the reasons, the Grand Lenormand resounds true to me... but there is nothing to support that theory yet. And the petit Lenormand wasn't all dressed up as we know it... but..! I do think someone has been paying attention to something when they decided to come out and publish them.

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I agree with you. I do remember reading somewhere – I think it was on a French site for the Grand Jeu – that Mlle. Lenormand turned her hand to art. It’s a shame we don’t know what that was, it might be a step on the way.

The Grand Jeu is very authentic to the 18th and 19th century French occult, especially in the fascination with Greek Mythology. In addition there is something very ‘her’ in those cards. Like you say, if you consult her writings it’s all there.

It’s like all those cards on her table put into one big deck. It’s loud. It’s a challenge and she was both of those things.

Le Fanu said:

Mention is also made (regarding the 33 sticks) that Etteilla believes that, before cards, a Greek soothsayer who fled to Spain read The 33 batons of Alpha (whatever that was, see Decker &c p.146). That may be similar to the "33 Greek sticks" from her inventory.

For someone who knew about astrology, and Mme Lenormand did, 36 seems a rather solid astrological number to work with but I had never read that the Piquet pack (and everyone automatically writes "she used the Piquet pack of 32 cards") had 36 cards in the 17th Century. That's interesting.

It is interesting too to note how she is the most famous cartomant of them all and yet she did not - let's be honest - introduce a new cartomantic system in the way that Waite or Crowley or Etteilla did. Everything about the Lenormand way of reading is fabricated after her death. There really is no system laid out, no matter what people might speculate. It's all hypothetical, pieced together from accounts (most of them after her death and rather dubious.)

Why did she write so much and never refer to the techniques of her card reading?

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It’s very sad that Lenormand didn’t really leave any instructions. She seemed very adamant that she would never: she didn’t take any pupils, and took out adverts saying so when people claimed to be her student. I think on some level she was worried about be out done by any pupil. Also, she enjoyed the acclaim. It was largely down to the mysterious quality.

She took pains to 'shine', right down to the bats and skeletons lol. People would also go in and out a different door. It was a show.

Regarding her cards we only have the eye witness accounts in memoirs. Most of those can, I think, be trusted. Malchus etc. didn’t need to impress or refute anything.

She did leave one to two descriptions in her writings. This is the clearest:

‘the King of Spades, together with the Eight of Diamonds, means that a skilled man has made trials to stop, if it is possible, the progression of an illness… Fortunately, the Nine of Hearts, which is coming out on top, announces to me that you will quickly see the end of your cruel anxieties…’ Les oracles sibyllins by Mlle. Lenormand, 1817.

She does appear to be using a very simple method, quite different from Etteilla. In fact they have more sembalance to the Salons cards. She also used Clubs for the more negative meanings. I’ve personally always thought that she used German playing cards, similar to what we see in Skat. There were however lots of cards available: Josephine and Tsar Alexander I (who both consulted Mlle. Lenormand) had their own fortune telling cards.

Re astrology, I have always understood that she wasn’t an astrologer in the sense of Lily etc? I don’t think many of her writings indicate she was a serious student. That she knew something of the stars and constellations is certain: she was student of mythology. If you look at the Grand Jeu the constellations are read mostly in relation to the mythology behind them.

andybc said:

Re astrology, I have always understood that she wasn’t an astrologer in the sense of Lily etc? I don’t think many of her writings indicate she was a serious student. That she knew something of the stars and constellations is certain: she was student of mythology. If you look at the Grand Jeu the constellations are read mostly in relation to the mythology behind them.

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Well, as mentioned before, she was a jack of all trades when it came to divination... and so, really, master of none. However, she was absolutely obsessed with her own birth chart, and she had drawn up charts for other people too... but only those of interest to her. Josephine must have had one, Napoleon too... Whenever it touched on her or one of her important patrons... she did a chart. Heck, I think some of them were filed as evidence by the Police when she was arrested... so we do have proof that she had some talent there too.

If I had to guess:

Main talent: acting / cards
Secondary: Astrology / Herbology
Tertiary: anything else under the moon.

So she had a flair for theatrical ....do you blame her?? Look at her clients....When in Rome ...
She was confident of herself and her talent...why is that wrong? And it doesn't make her a charlatan...
Her imprisonment was not about that but mostly personal, she was Josephine s friend in a time when Napoleon was trying to get rid of Jospehine to ally himself with Austria ...

Back then it wasn't "the thing" to write a "how to" especially for the people she mingled with.. It wasn't an easy time where you could go to prison for a simple accusation..there was many political factors and social..
She was a powerful woman in a volatile historical time...I say good for her

We have little information about her ways of reading and we are just speculating all over the place .. I don't thing there is enough historical research done...the Internet is really not reliable there are so many contradicting articles I found.. Also I noticed some blogers have the wrong information about her...

The thread was about why 36 cards?? A very good question.. Knowing enough about her that would be too simple for her... But maybe she devised a simple oracle for the aristocrats ?!!?! I mean she did teach Josephine how to read for herself.. And I doubt that it would be bulky like a tarot deck.. .... No for Josephine it will be more small and dainty..

It is possible that she had her own deck or maybe a makeshift deck.... Why is it so farfetched??? ...she had enough capital..she made a fortune..

There is nothing impossible especially without any tangible evidence....
And quoting Napoleon "l'impossible est possible"....



ETA: if she wasn't that good she wouldn't have lasted in that brutal time and we wouldn't be still talking about her..... you go girl !!! Mademoiselle Lenormand la sibylle des salons

One more thing, I don't think it's fair to compare her to Crowley and Waite... First the time period second I mean she was a "woman" in that time period and they were men in secret boys club backed by these clubs etc.. But she did have Napoleon as a patron and a repeat client...in fact for a period of time he always took consult with her.. That alone made her super famous.... I would think..right?

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Do we need a spin-off thread to discuss Mlle Lenormand herself?
If the birth data given for her (May 27) is considered accurate, I'd love to look up her Birth Cards and compare with other famous people born that day.

Ashtaroot,

I think you took the comment about her not being a trustworthy source (source the imperative word here) out of context a bit.

She did embellish things to make herself look good. Can't be the all seeing Sybille when you didn't know the cops were coming for you... which I have no doubt that some of the writings was fluff to cover that and say: "I knew..!" There is a lot of things that she writes that you must take with a grain of salt. It does not mean that she was a charlatan. Heck, I wouldn't trust Napoleon's word either, nor Crowley's, but her reputation was at stake. It was her bread and butter...

A good source is one that is unbiased (or tries to present things with all the facts), and she is biased in every way possible when she writes her books. I don't always believe her... however, the authorities had nothing on her. And no, they did not simply arrest her because of Napoleon's doing. She was arrested during la terreur for predicting death to people... which started an investigation and then Saint-Just, Marat, et Robespierre came to see her about it. She predicted deaths to all of them, which is what got her jailed in the first place. Which is how she actually met Josephine, btw.

She was a great lady... but self-serving. That doesn't diminish her talent though.

cardlady22 said:

Do we need a spin-off thread to discuss Mlle Lenormand herself?
If the birth data given for her (May 27) is considered accurate, I'd love to look up her Birth Cards and compare with other famous people born that day.

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I don't think there is a confirmed birthdate... I remember reading that there was a bit of a debate about it, but since Wiki has it as 27 May 1772, why not try it?

Well, the range of possible Sabian Symbols for that date are very interesting.
Gemini 5 ~ A radical magazine or publication, asking for action, displays a sensational front page.
to reach beyond established forms
Gemini 6 ~ Workmen drilling for oil.
ambition; delving in
Gemini 7 ~ An old-fashioned well with the purest and coolest of waters.
fundamental trust in life; cooperation with environment

In the playing card calendar, May 27 is the 5 Express communication
Saturn energy in; Mercury energy out
*ruled by the K Serve emotion or the 3 Group construction

Christopher Lee, Vincent Price
Paul Bettany, Louis Gossett Jr
Peri Gilpin, Julia Ward Howe
Wild Bill Hickok, Derek Parker
Henry Kissinger, Christopher Dodd

lord_ewin said:

Ashtaroot,

I think you took the comment about her not being a trustworthy source (source the imperative word here) out of context a bit.

She did embellish things to make herself look good. Can't be the all seeing Sybille when you didn't know the cops were coming for you... which I have no doubt that some of the writings was fluff to cover that and say: "I knew..!" There is a lot of things that she writes that you must take with a grain of salt. It does not mean that she was a charlatan. Heck, I wouldn't trust Napoleon's word either, nor Crowley's, but her reputation was at stake. It was her bread and butter...

A good source is one that is unbiased (or tries to present things with all the facts), and she is biased in every way possible when she writes her books. I don't always believe her... however, the authorities had nothing on her. And no, they did not simply arrest her because of Napoleon's doing. She was arrested during la terreur for predicting death to people... which started an investigation and then Saint-Just, Marat, et Robespierre came to see her about it. She predicted deaths to all of them, which is what got her jailed in the first place. Which is how she actually met Josephine, btw.

She was a great lady... but self-serving. That doesn't diminish her talent though.

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I know I know no worries I didn't take anything out of context... All I was trying to say from all my readings is that there is more to the story...

Also yes.. you are right I know all about the time of terror in the earlier times ... she was very smart to keep her head on her shoulders during it..I was talking about the later time...

And I know in some writings she wasn't really a nice person...

I felt she needed cheering on this thread yeah I'm in a girl power mood

I see where you re coming from...also I think there is a but...