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Madonna in Israel

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Lleminawc  Lleminawc is offline
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Madonna in Israel


I read this week that kabbalistic rabbis have been criticising Esther's interpretation of Kabbalah, for instance claiming that it doesn't sit well with making raunchy videos with a guy who is 20 years her junior, or that as a woman she has no business to be studying it at all...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lleminawc
I read this week that kabbalistic rabbis have been criticising Esther's interpretation of Kabbalah, for instance claiming that it doesn't sit well with making raunchy videos with a guy who is 20 years her junior, or that as a woman she has no business to be studying it at all...
Really? As a woman, I object to that last comment . . .

\m/ Kat
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Milfoil  Milfoil is offline
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Strangely, for someone so dynamic and self assured, Madonna (Esther) is still desperately seeking Susan! If she were not in the Music industry, I suspect she would be making porn.

Just because she claims interest in Kabbalah doesn't means she is any sort of authority or indeed, judging from her actions, any sort of dedicated follower. In the past she has claimed to be interested or following various different beliefs which is ok in itself but this latest Kabbalah stuff seems more for profit than anything else.

http://www.adherents.com/people/pm/Madonna.html

Madonna seems to present as a power hungry individual, unbalanced and bent upon 'her way' rather than accepting any sort of established wisdom. She seeks fulfillment from countries and cultures which are not her own (an African baby, Israel is her power centre, Kabbalah etc yet her own background and culture are simply not exotic enough for her.

Yup - still desperately seeking Madonna, whoever she is!
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I'm not the world's biggest Madonna devotee; I'm more interested in the music than the persona. Yet I feel compelled to respond to this thread, because I don't understand the point of it. So what if rabbis think Madonna shouldn't be studying kabbalah? I think they'd be appalled by this forum studying kabbalah publicly and with tarot; and they'd cry heresy over the whole hermetic kabbalah to boot. Women on this forum? Obviously they'd better lay down their kabbalah because the media found some rabbis who disapprove.

That's an old article. I remember hearing about that at the time; Madonna's response was "how could a bunch of rabbis who haven't heard my unreleased album have any idea what it's about?" And indeed, artists of any media make art about what they want. I think Eminem (as an example) raised less fuss than this, and was more generally accepted, despite being known for misogynistic and homophobic lyrics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milfoil
Strangely, for someone so dynamic and self assured, Madonna (Esther) is still desperately seeking Susan! If she were not in the Music industry, I suspect she would be making porn.
Haha. But interesting thought, I can see why you'd say that.

Quote:
Just because she claims interest in Kabbalah doesn't means she is any sort of authority or indeed, judging from her actions, any sort of dedicated follower. In the past she has claimed to be interested or following various different beliefs which is ok in itself but this latest Kabbalah stuff seems more for profit than anything else.
She's a shrewd businesswoman, and a celebrity who benefits from the media. For better or worse, that's the US way.

Frankly, her song "American Life" -- in which she sings about realization that the American Dream isn't what it's cracked up to be -- rubbed me the wrong way. At best I felt it was satire, at worst a lame attempt to have a new persona. But there were some great songs on that album, and I listened to them happily.

Quote:
Madonna seems to present as a power hungry individual, unbalanced and bent upon 'her way' rather than accepting any sort of established wisdom.
Seems to, yes. But as a woman who wanted to be successful in a business domain where men usually have the power, could it be that Madonna needed to come across that way, indeed to BE that way, to succeed? Granted her reputation has always been of iron-fisted control. But look how successful that's made her. I doubt she'd lose sleep over criticism. And as a strong woman, she no doubt gets a lot. I see the same thing in the corporate world with non-celebrities.

Quote:
She seeks fulfillment from countries and cultures which are not her own (an African baby, Israel is her power centre, Kabbalah etc yet her own background and culture are simply not exotic enough for her.
Devil's advocate: Wouldn't that apply to anyone on this forum who studies Kabbalah and wasn't raised in the Jewish faith? Come to think of it, tarot could be studied because it's more exotic than becoming a psychologist.

Quote:
Yup - still desperately seeking Madonna, whoever she is!
Perhaps!
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Milfoil  Milfoil is offline
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Personally it doesn't bother me either way, I just can't take the religious/spiritual associations that she places in her music very seriously thats all.

There are plenty of men and women who use brute force, sex and an iron fist to get to where they percieve is the top of their career or business ladder. All that does is to perpetuate the myth that a) thats how it has to be done and b) that it was worth doing in the first place.

I don't think I have ever understood the grasping for glamour or fame or why people seek power and glory. We're all different, thats for sure. Whatever drives Madonna to strive to remain a 20+ yr old into her 50's, bumping and grinding away etc, I can't say but its not what most mature women aim for. Her whole career seems to have hinged on rebellion, sex and power which are root chakra influences. It would be encouraging to see not just charity work in Malawi but a real glimps at the more balanced, mature Madonna who doesn't need to sell herself with sex in order to sell music!

In a nutshell, when she acts her age and show signs of inner searching and wisdom, perhaps the wider world will take her beliefs more seriously but right now they just come across as business stragegies to stir up controversy and thereby more publicity for her waning career.
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Grigori  Grigori is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lleminawc
I read this week that kabbalistic rabbis have been criticising Esther's interpretation of Kabbalah, for instance claiming that it doesn't sit well with making raunchy videos with a guy who is 20 years her junior, or that as a woman she has no business to be studying it at all...
Isn't it nice that anyone can find something of benefit from Kabbalah, even if on the surface they look like they would be more natural with something else. I've found studying Kabbalah very useful, though I'd meet the usual criteria even less than Madonna would. Shameless devil worshiping under-aged inappropriate unnatural fornicator that I am.

It's always curious to me that anyone would consider something to be of value and then want to deny it to someone else, especially someone else who they apparently consider to be most in need of it's influence... Most curious
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my two cents on that (shallow, let's admit it to ourselves ;-) yet fascinating issue...

1. Kabbalah, the very little i know about it, is really interesting.

2. Some clever people decided to make money out of it and/or grow some influence on others, that the Kabbalah Center i am referring to. I believe Madonna belongs to this "club".

3. And it is wonderful that those ppl did so and that Madonna got an interest in that because it helped making the Kabbalah "popular". Now some other Kabbalah schools offer serious classes -for free- on the net and you don't even need to buy a red string bracelet to be considered a devoted student. Because let's face it, it's all between you and this holy part of yourself, this inner light that we all have in common. It's not about proving to anybody whether you are a serious student or not.

4. Madonna is a business woman, don't think that she's independent though. All Madonna that she is, she still needs to obey the market rules. The sexy clothes, the more than evocative dancing, this is her trademark. It's been working for her for the last hmmm.... 25 years... Remember what happens when some food industry company tries to change one of the ingredrients in their best-selling product? They quickly go back to the "Original recipe"...

5. Now my own view of Madonna. I think she's a tortured soul, like all artists. Being deprived of the love of her mother made her want to be adored by the world, but still there is this flaw, this hole. We all are children in adults' skins. As any overexposed celebrity, she will be tracked, attacked, insulted whatever she does. If she doesn't do anything, the media will invent something anyway. The public character and the private person must be differentiated, to my knowledge, Madonna makes very little comments about her faith. Regarding the overuse of plastic surgery, i see it as her own issue and choice, nothing to do with her faith, but it sure is a pity and not the best example of growing old with serenity.

Yes Madonna is annoying and no she's not getting prettier but i give her full credit and my respectful admiration for following her own path and for training so hard physically to stay in top shape. And some more admiration for not being afraid of those extremist rabbis. When the world is ready to accept it, Kabbalah will get "out of its closet", i guess this time has come now but some initiates might not be ready to give up their status.

PS: i think this thread might be transferred to the Chat section... not sure we are completely on topic here :-P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kissa
Now my own view of Madonna. I think she's a tortured soul, like all artists. Being deprived of the love of her mother made her want to be adored by the world, but still there is this flaw, this hole.
I agree. I think Madonna is not at peace - well how many of us really are - but as Milfoil says, she's still looking to find herself after all this time. I have my own personal thoughts on her...based on observation and information I've heard first-hand from people who directly know her...but it all brings the conclusion that Madonna is someone who's unsure of herself, afraid of being alone (actually can't be alone much), needs a LOT of reassurance from friends/lovers on a regular basis to keep her together, very insecure, quite fragile (I know, hard to believe), and I think this all leads to her needing to control her environment so intensely.

Of course, I'm making speculations and until I meet the woman and get to know her, it's unfair to say all these things. But, I have a very strong feeling about what I express/sense about her...and well, she's no less "broken" than many people out there. It's just easier to see with her because she's a public figure.

Anyway, end of day, may she find whatever she's looking for. I've loved/admired her music for a very long time...and sometimes, I still manage to wince at the things she does, but who am I to judge...

GA
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It's not true that all artists are tortured souls.

The odd thing about Madonna, for me, is that I can never recognize who she is from her pictures. It's not just that she changes her appearance with makeup and hair dye. It doesn't matter how many different pictures I see of her; I just don't recognize who it is. It's like she's not really a coherent self.
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Purely a personal view.
I think she's Ambition Incarnate - which finds expression through her talent.

Tortured souls and motherless/fatherless people exist in all walks of life, it's not confined to specific people, but very few of them have a public profile - or the cash that goes with it. Not that money is an answer, but at least one can be materially comfortable whilst suffering.

Bee
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