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THE EMPEROR,STAR & JUSTICE

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Fronterance  Fronterance is offline
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THE EMPEROR,STAR & JUSTICE


The Thoth Tarot does some very unlikely things for me that frequently leave me just dumbstruck. Stuff that is so far beyond likelihood that it puts a smile on your face you can't erase. However, all my prior Qabalistic training and Tarot studies were based on "Old Aeon" Tarot placement. BOTA, in fact. These placements work well and makes sense on the Tree of Life AND the Cube of Space. What's more, the standard "classic" tarot actually depicts the characters in relation to the Cube of Space (where they're looking, the cubes they sit on, etc.). It all relates perfectly.

And so, with the Thoth tarot, I patiently wait to understand the changes Crowley has made because the deck is just so obviously magickal it practically jumps out at you and says "BOO" compared to the results you're bound to get with other decks. I mean, Thoth is accurate, consistent and PERSISTENT. Try shuffling and pulling cards out at random while thinking of a specific circumstance or question.

Then, I come upon this and ... well, I don't know how to classify my feelings other than to say I find it "annoying" ... It's not that I think the commentary is annoying or that Crowley's changes are annoying, necessarily. No, what I find annoying is that I just am not familiar enough with Qaballah to know if there are other arguments FOR Crowley's placement choices that are not described below:


From http://www.experiencefestival.com/th...r_and_the_star
"THE EMPEROR AND THE STAR
These are Crowley's two greatest mysteries. We need to study them in
tandem, because Crowley insists that the Emperor's proper letter is
not Heh, but Tzaddi, so it must change places with The Star. Since
these new attributions fly in the face of every tradition, let's try
to guess why he does this.
By Crowley's reckoning, the star, Kokhav = 48 (a multiple of 12), the
astrological number) or the "sphere of Venus". It represents Mercy
(Gedulah or Chesed ). It also means, "strength" and "army". Forty
eight divided by four is 14, the card of Temperance (or Alchemy),
where we also have the angel pouring the waters. Qisar and Melech both
translate as "Emperor". To continue with Crowley's reckoning, qisar
would equal 371 ("Evil") and melech would equal 78 (that is, 15, or
The Devil). However, if we use the ordinal value of the letters alone
we get for Qisar and Melech, respectively, 60 and 33. Thirty Three is
"sorrow, weeping" and a spring or fountain." Sixty is "watch-tower",
excellence, sublimity, glory, pride, a Vision..." For kochav we get 28
or "Union, unity, power, and the mystic Netzach. . ." If we skip Aleph
we get for Qisar and Melech, 60 and 30 ("Judah, Libra, Justice"). All
of these seem appropriate enough for "The Emperor" but still do not
explain why Crowley wants him to be the 17th card!
One reason that Crowley might have wanted to exchange The Emperor with
Atu number 17 is so that (17 = 1 + 7 = 8 ) The Emperor (4) would serve
as the higher exponent of Justice, which he had renamed "Adjustment"
and already exchanged with Strength at 11. In his system, that places
mundane authority (the Emperor) in the most subservient position and
exalts Sirius (the Star) to the seat of greatest power at Atu 4.
Meanwhile, Strength, now Atu 11, becomes the higher exponent of The
Priestess (Atu 2), since 11 is the number of sorcery. This kind of
highly rational manipulation of universal symbols is typical of
Crowley's creative and very original approach to M/magic(k). The whole
thing is extremely round-about and vexatious and looks like nothing so
much as one of those infinitely-regressing whorls of cocaine-induced
ratiocination, which were sometimes characteristic of Crowley. His
paltry excuse that tzaddi is the letter that begins the word for
Emperor "in many languages", is not meant to fool any serious student.
It occurs only in Russian, Tsar, which is but a corruption of
"Caesar."
Moreover, even if we assign the ordinal value to tzaddi (18 ), that
translates as the notariqon of Yehi Aur ("Let there be light!"); Chai
(the "living"); the antique serpent (Lucifer?); Hatred and "My
Beloved". All of those seem strangely fitting for The Star, whereas
"four" seems more natural to the Emperor if we think of him as the
Tetragrammaton (IHVH). Apparently, that was precisely what AC wanted
to avoid -- the ascription of IHVH to the Emperor. All the same, after
all this numerology, we are no closer to the meaning of these cards.
Indeed, we are farther at sea than ever!"

[ / end quote]

What do you think?
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Aeon418  Aeon418 is offline
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Ho hum..... here we go again.
Quote:
Sincethese new attributions fly in the face of every tradition, let's try
to guess why he does this.
So Crowley's attributions fly in the face of every tradition. Not quite. They differ from the Golden Dawn tradition. But then again the Golden Dawn tradition flys in the face of every other tradition. See where we're going.
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Fronterance  Fronterance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Ho hum..... here we go again.

So Crowley's attributions fly in the face of every tradition. Not quite. They differ from the Golden Dawn tradition. But then again the Golden Dawn tradition flys in the face of every other tradition. See where we're going.

Here we go again for you, maybe. This was my first post. Neither Agrippa nor Levi make reference to the Tarot? I had thought, personally, that the Golden Dawn patchworked their magick from earlier traditions and the Inner School (ie. Secret Chiefs) was their guiding light. That would make the term used "flying in the face of every tradition" accurate. Besides, even Crowley seemed to think it was correct-- for the "OLD AEON." Of course, Crowley claims to be the only one to have made contact with the Inner School, via Aiwaz, and so his changes represent his "NEW AEON." I'm not so sure others would agree with Crowley's assessment, since others indeed have supposedly made contact with the Inner School... and they still follow "Old Aeon." In any case, mr. 418, please keep in mind that I was quoting someone else and the above quote was not my own words. However, they seem more accurate than your own, based on what (or what little) I know.
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Note the smiley next to ho-hum? It was a joke.
Oh well, maybe not.

Look at it this way. Do you know what a Russian Doll is? Dolls that fit inside dolls. The old aeons fit inside the New Aeon. The Old Aeon formula of Osiris still exists and works as a fully fledged magical system in it's own right, with it's own inner plane contacts and correspondences that conform to the old aeon formula.

But if you follow Crowley's line of reasoning the New Aeon has opened up access to new and higher areas of power. If you want to make use of them you have to change your method of working and follow a symbol system that reflects these changes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronterance
Neither Agrippa nor Levi make reference to the Tarot? I had thought, personally, that the Golden Dawn patchworked their magick from earlier traditions and the Inner School (ie. Secret Chiefs) was their guiding light. That would make the term used "flying in the face of every tradition" accurate.
Levi's correspondences are different to the Golden Dawn's. But some people think they are correct.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Note the smiley next to ho-hum? It was a joke.
Oh well, maybe not.

Look at it this way. Do you know what a Russian Doll is? Dolls that fit inside dolls. The old aeons fit inside the New Aeon. The Old Aeon formula of Osiris still exists and works as a fully fledged magical system in it's own right, with it's own inner plane contacts and correspondences that conform to the old aeon formula.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I like it! Also explains why the Thoth deck works so darn WELL. Anything that works so WELL can't be wrong!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
NBut if you follow Crowley's line of reasoning the New Aeon has opened up access to new and higher areas of power. If you want to make use of them you have to change your method of working and follow a symbol system that reflects these changes.
Thing is I don't really understand Crowley's reasons for these changes. That's what I was trying to relate here. On the one hand, Crowley was very organized and thorough. On the other hand, he wasn't. Compared to Paul Foster Case's methodical, thorough and meaning-packed sentences, Crowley can be very vague and poetic even when he's TRYING to be direct. The Book of Thoth is like this. This is why I understand the criticism above that regarding Tzaddi/Tsar/Cesar. It's one of those cases where Crowley flits around the subject none too thoroughly when making an important point; as if he only hints at things briefly because there isn't enough proof behind them to make an in-depth case.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Levi's correspondences are different to the Golden Dawn's. But some people think they are correct.
Case was the first one to really get into depth regarding the Cube of Space. I am going to attempt to place the Thoth deck on the Cube of Space and see how it works out. I wonder if it will make as much sense... When I accomplish this, I'll stop by and share it with you. Thanks for your help.
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People often seem to think that Crowley had evrything worked out regarding the New Aeon right from the word go. But this isn't the case at all. Crowley's diaries reveal that he is trying to work things out and experiment with new ideas. Crowley was a pioneer in unknown spiritual territory.

In a letter to the Gnostic Wandering Bishop, W.B.Crow, Crowley says that all the old magical formulas still work and can still be used to great effect. But even though the New Aeon has arrived the complete working formulae have't been fully worked out. Crowley was only the Prophet of the new aeon. His work is a pointer in the right direction, but it's not complete. He expected the people who came after him to work out the rest as the nature of the aeon became more apparent.

Bear in mind that the Golden Dawn, BOTA and all the rest had the whole history of the aeon of Osiris to check their data against. Crowley was working for the future, and hence had very little to guide him. Is it any wonder that some of his material is a little thin?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
People often seem to think that Crowley had evrything worked out regarding the New Aeon right from the word go.
Not me! I know he put Liber Al in a drawer and tried to forget about it. I also know that Frater Achad helped him figure out something (escapes me at the moment) before they had a falling out. (Is Frater Achad crazy or what? A "black brother?" I can't find enough info on what happened to him.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Crowley was a pioneer in unknown spiritual territory.
Yes, that's why I always want to examine his ideas very carefully. He was experimenting and was kind of a sadist with his students at times. He may think it's awfully cute to get kicked out of bed by a demon, but that doesn't mean I want to repeat those experiments and get the same result! ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
In a letter to the Gnostic Wandering Bishop, W.B.Crow, Crowley says that all the old magical formulas still work and can still be used to great effect. But even though the New Aeon has arrived the complete working formulae have't been fully worked out. Crowley was only the Prophet of the new aeon. His work is a pointer in the right direction, but it's not complete. He expected the people who came after him to work out the rest as the nature of the aeon became more apparent.
There is always the chance someone could discover a cosmic joke has been played, I suppose! But that was always an option, anyway, wasn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Bear in mind that the Golden Dawn, BOTA and all the rest had the whole history of the aeon of Osiris to check their data against. Crowley was working for the future, and hence had very little to guide him. Is it any wonder that some of his material is a little thin?
Flies in the face of everything? ;-)

Once again, I appreciate your insights!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronterance
I also know that Frater Achad helped him figure out something (escapes me at the moment) before they had a falling out. (Is Frater Achad crazy or what? A "black brother?" I can't find enough info on what happened to him.)
Frater Achad is a controversial figure. Some people think he went mad, others don't. Personally I think he made quite a few valuable discoveries. But then he over stepped the mark and went off at the deep end. I think he realised this toward the end of his life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronterance
He was experimenting and was kind of a sadist with his students at times.
Being (apparently) sadistic towards students is not uncommon in spiritual practice. Check out the Zen tradition where some masters treat their best students very harshly for their own benefit! It's a hard concept to get your head around at first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronterance
There is always the chance someone could discover a cosmic joke has been played, I suppose! But that was always an option, anyway, wasn't it?
That's possible. But the only way to find out is via direct experience. Theory and intellectual game play can only take you so far, or maybe even lead you further away.
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