Hierophant in Outcome

Ukkonen

I see the Hierophant as the Outcome pretty much in the same way as does Cat Eyes - pointing towards the "social face" of the relationship. What is acceptable in the situation? How does the environment relate to the issue? What is "normal" behaviour in the situation and what would the persons (partners) really want to do? The Hierophant stresses the outer face, sometimes maybe too strongly.
I remember doing a reading concerning a relationship with the Hierophant in it (can't remember the actual card position), and the querant said that she was "really worried about how her family might react to the news of her breaking up the relationship she was currently in (and which wasn't working out that good)". These ideas she strongly connected with the Hierophant.
It might be of help to view this card in relation with the first two cards - provided that you did a Celtic Cross?
 

aria

tradition....one tarot reader had got this card for me as the outcome card in a relationship reading and she said..tradition and marriage!!
 

Fulgour

Card 5 = Letter 5

wizzle said:
This would be in relationship to the card's - attribution to Vav (nail).
In my book The Hierophant is Letter 5
"HE" which signifies the 1st Month,
Nisanu (Hebrew Nisan) and so Aries.

Can you site an Authority of assigning The Hierophant
to Letter 6 "WAW" (in Germanic pronunciation VAV)
in the Tarot created 1909 by Pamela Colman Smith?

How did The Golden Dawn earn "the right to be right"
when it's plainly clear that they screwed up the works?

This is The Rider-Waite-Smith Study Group Sub-Forum,
and not The Thoth Study Group Sub-Forum, which uses
the assignations which result in what I see as an absurd
0=1 system, popularised by the dubious Aleister Crowley.

...and "HE" literally means "Behold!"
 

Teheuti

Fulgour said:
Can you site an Authority of assigning The Hierophant
to Letter 6 "WAW" (in Germanic pronunciation VAV)
in the Tarot created 1909 by Pamela Colman Smith?

How did The Golden Dawn earn "the right to be right"
when it's plainly clear that they screwed up the works?

IMHO, anyone can use any attributions they wish. The GD system is not any more right than any others. This is simply a system that has become useful to a number of people - including Waite - whether or not he thought that it was "right" - which, it's clear from other works that he didn't.

Waite was not slavish regarding the GD system. He later created a whole new set of Major Arcana with totally new images that correspond to the paths on the Tree in a completely new way.

However, in 1910 he demonstrated a willingness to work with the GD system when he says regarding the High Priestess: "If we look at the Tarot cards as they are allocated on the Tree of Life we shall find that in one or other of her aspects she is the guardian of the gates of entrance. . . . As the Shekinah in transcendence she manifests in the vestures of a High Priestess keeping the Path of Ghimel, because she is religion in attainment."

And, "The spirit of the Great White Star in the Path of Tzaddi is Shekinah under another aspect, directing the waters of life to the great world of intellection and keeping the ways thereof. But the symbol of the riven Tower in the Path of Pe indicates the work of him who enters the Grade of Philosophys and the region of the dedicated will." Waite then says that he's not going to discuss the paths beyond Tiphareth in this article.

It seems to me that we can extrapolate from the above that the Hierophant would follow on with the GD scheme.

This is from "the Tarot and the Rosy Cross" by G.H. Frater Sacramentum Regis, which was bound in a book titled _Studies and Rituals of the Rosy Cross_. London: unpublished Independent and Rectified Rite typescript, as published by Darcy Kuntz in _The Golden Dawn Tarot: The Great Dance of the Royal Figures_ (Holmes Publishing).

Mary
 

Fulgour

but... Tarot is NOT Kabbalah

Teheuti said:
"The spirit of the Great White Star in the Path of Tzaddi is Shekinah under another aspect, directing the waters of life to the great world of intellection and keeping the ways thereof. But the symbol of the riven Tower in the Path of Pe indicates the work of him who enters the Grade of Philosophys and the region of the dedicated will." Waite then says that he's not going to discuss the paths beyond Tiphareth in this article.
All of which is Kabbalah and that means MAGICK.
Would you say Waite was "into" White or Black?
 

Teheuti

Fulgour said:
All of which is Kabbalah and that means MAGICK.
Would you say Waite was "into" White or Black?

The Independent and Rectified Rite was an order of Ceremonial Magic, which I'm sure he considered white magic since it's focus was on union with the divine. However, at heart he was a mystic and so his subsequent Fellowship of the Rosy Cross was a mystical order that didn't include the formal practice of magic.

You can read his books to discover his precise definitions of white and black magic since that hasn't been a particular interest of mine.

Mary
 

wizzle

Fulgour said:
In my book The Hierophant is Letter 5
"HE" which signifies the 1st Month,
Nisanu (Hebrew Nisan) and so Aries.

Can you site an Authority of assigning The Hierophant
to Letter 6 "WAW" (in Germanic pronunciation VAV)
in the Tarot created 1909 by Pamela Colman Smith?

How did The Golden Dawn earn "the right to be right"
when it's plainly clear that they screwed up the works?

This is The Rider-Waite-Smith Study Group Sub-Forum,
and not The Thoth Study Group Sub-Forum, which uses
the assignations which result in what I see as an absurd
0=1 system, popularised by the dubious Aleister Crowley.

...and "HE" literally means "Behold!"

Oh... har har.. ahem.. ok.

My authority for assigning Vav to the Hierophant is the GD. Sorry. Mea culpa.
But then again, Pixie didn't do much writing about why she did what so I have to really on Waite's writings and affiliations.

And.. ahem.. the 0=1 abomination is Mather's via derivation from McKenzie. So more appropriate to the RWS forum than to the even more derivative Crowley forum. At least Waite was an earlier initiate than AC. We'll just leave how much AC couldn't attribute to anyone but himself aside, OK?

Now.. on to the GD screwing up the works. Oh? They seem to have a perfectly logical set of attributions given that they didn't move into alphabetical or numerical anarchy. It is very simple to say.. this goes there.. that goes here.. if you are willing to disrupt numerical or alphabetical sequences. Heck, even I can do that. But try making the following assumptions...

- the hebrew letters must be in their usual sequence and ordered
- the tarot cards must be in their usual numeric sequence except that you may put 0 where you chose
- the assignment of the hebrew letters to the ToL must follow a logical pattern

Given these "rules" it's very difficult to come up with a better approach than the GD's. Of course my bottom line is "which cards are on the middle pillar"? Does anyone really agree that the Devil should be represented? That is what happens if you do the simple aleph=1 shift holding the Kirchner ToL as a constant.

But that's the challenge, no? Make it all fit together. So far, I don't think anyone has done a better job of fitting the puzzle pieces together than has the GD. Remember I'm coming from a position that you can't assign stuff in a random manner. That would enable any of us from solving the puzzle.
 

wizzle

double post... sorry
 

Fulgour

wizzle said:
Remember I'm coming from a position that
you can't assign stuff in a random manner.
Begin with the Tarot you hold in your hands and work back.
Go past The Golden Dawn and the Kabbalah, past Hebrew,
past La Renaissance, past Gnosticism, go past Revelations,
past Pythagoras, past the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians,
and you'll be there with the Phoenician Alphabet & Zodiac.

Now think about what came before that and before that...
Then work again forward to the Tarot there in your hands.
 

Teheuti

Fulgour said:
Begin with the Tarot you hold in your hands and work back. <snip>
Now think about what came before that and before that...
Then work again forward to the Tarot there in your hands.

I'd like to suggest Christine Payne-Towler's self-published book, _The Underground Stream_ as a valiant effort to do just this.

Mary