Caylee Anthony V/S Casey Anthony (comparison chart)

Minderwiz

tarotlyn said:
Yes, that could be possible. Don't forget this little girl was with her mother
for over 2 years and under the influence of those combined hard aspects.


I wasn't foregetting I just wanted to see how generalised you saw the combined hard aspects and wanted to know whether you saw anyone with these combined hard aspects as probable murderers/abusers/victims - which you clearly do.

tarotlyn said:
nk]If you watch the Nancy Grace program, they are knee deep in other cases with similar COMBINED HARD ASPECTS. Other than this, you would probably have to do a search for files at each police station in the world and gather the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS of the parents and children involved in such cases, keeping in mind that not all such cases would have such notoriety as this case. It would take you more than just over night to know that the police in the world are not blanketed with similar cases with similar or same combined hard aspects between parents and their children, or aunts and children, uncles and children, etc.

Well I don't think we get Nancy Grace in the UK but as I understand it, she's a legal commentator not an Astrologer - perhaps you could give me some information on her consideration of cases which explicitly involve the combined hard aspects - as it's you that's claiming these aspects are so prevelent and so universal in such cases, I'll leave you to do the trawling - but I'd be interested in the results



tarotlyn said:
how far along her Spiritual path that Casey, the mom, was at the time.
She came here and had a choice, as we all do, whether she would go on a more Spiritual path,
or GIVE IN to those COMBINED HARD ASPECTS with her daughter. This was her choice.
She could give in or not give in. Obviously her daughter is dead, so 'I believe' that
she DID GIVE IN to those hard combined aspects during certain transit times.

I merely used the word 'could' so that others could check out these combined hard aspects
between the mother and the daughter and then decide for themselves.

So the combined hard aspects CAN be overridden by other factors by people who are on a spiritual path - apart from circumstance (and Casey could be found innocent) how do you know that she ISN'T on a spiritual path, when there's no accurate chart for her? What astrological evidence have you? I can understand a view that everyone in a relationship with these aspects will end up killing or abusing but you've now come up with an exception - how do you know astrologically that Casey is not spiritually inclined?

tarotlyn said:
You ask how we do it? My answer is simple: We just get out there into the world and CHART people and we gain experience and 'people' knowledge rather than 'just' book knowledge. That is how we do it. We find out for ourselves by doing the charting and counseling out there in the real world. Book knowledge is a good take off point, but we need real experience from real people that have these types of aspects. That is how because otherwise anyone can write anything they want in a book or course on astrology, but until they have actually experienced these types of hard aspects through counseling and observing first hand, then they are stuck in a book and lost in details.

Well I've been charting for 45 years but charting alone is insufficient - there needs to be a philosophic and astrological structure to the process, otherwise we have data but not knowledge - the latter requires the ability to appraise and interpret the data and to draw conclusions, which in turn requires the structures for doing that. In the question I posed, the only way to settle the issue is to have a series of formal structured investigations - these may indeed confirm the hard aspect view or establish clear limits to it's effectiveness. That might sound a negative comment but I put it forward in a positive way - I think we should do much more to formally investigate our Astrological tenets. I've argued elsewhere for such tests for the outers especially but with little interest.


tarotlyn said:
I definitely was not flattering you, sorry you think that. I just thought that you knew enough 'book knowledge' to be able to do your own analysis of these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

I didn't actually think you were LOL And the answer to your point is that I have both the 'book knowledge and the practical experience to do such analysis - however the last 10 years has led me down a different path and I have little interest in using the outers but a lot of interest in looking at murder and abuse cases - hence my other post which goes some way in confirming your conclusions.

tarotlyn said:
BUT, now that you say you do not take into consideration Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto,
I believe that your take on the matter might very well be of minimal help to my post,
at least in my mind. In that, 'you' think that is not possible to have such COMBINED HARD ASPECTS (that 'could' have caused the murder of Caylee Anthony by her mother Casey Anthony) because you do not include Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto and they are not traditional to 'you.'
...whereas, I do include them and think they are of great value.
That of course is probably subject for an entirely different post.

Hmm I would have thought that you were open enough to other views to see that a different approach might actually shed light on the 'combined hard aspects' - my analysis reached a reasonably similar conclusion i.e. that Casey was involved in the disposal of the remains (now admitted) but that it's unlikely that the grandfather was involved, as per defence claim. The conclusion is that she probably killed, either intentionally or accidentally Caylee and then disposed of the body. Either way a serious criminal offence was committed.

However if you're not interested in confirmatory evidence which doesn't simply say combined hard aspects = guilt = combined hard aspects, then it's a bit of a pity as we could have taken this to quite a deep level.

tarotlyn said:
The same goes for COMBINE HARD ASPECTS between two people.
When you live them, breath them watch them. see them, counsel them, THEN
you know and can surmise the effects of COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

Maybe someone else, that DOES INCLUDE Uranus, Pluto, and Neptune for consideration,
could analyze these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS which we have been talking about.

As you already have decided that only the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS are the only possible relevant astrological information and that you have years of analysing them, what is the point of anyone commenting on them, as you will not change your mind if they disagree, and won't learn anything if the do agree - I offered you an alternative approach that came to similar conclusions (and actually used verified charts) I'm not saying the alternative is a replacement or a better or even the 'right' approach - I'm saying that maybe it's a complementary view that with some discussion both ways might lead to a deeper understanding - yet you have fixated on the idea that I'm opposing you or that because I raise concerns I must be only into 'book learning' and don't do charts.

Yes I've challenged some of your points, more because I wasn't clear how far you took the aspects without the context of a chart (and therefore house and sign placements) - I think you've answered my questions.

I don't think that of themselves the combined hard aspects provide a complete explanation - that's a matter of opinion though - but I don't see any a priori reason why their prediction in this case cannot be tested using other methods to see if the same conclusion is reached.

So don't be so defensive - accept that there are other real astrological systems that pre-date Alan Leo and might actually throw light on an issue and indeed work in tandem with a modern approach, highlighting different but relevant points and often coming to the same conclusions. I've had quite a few discussions on the outers with another Astrologer here, and we fundamentally disagree but I have to happily admit that when we look at a chart or a situation, we are in general agreement far more often than we disagree. I would have said that there is more than one way to skin a cat but as a devout and devoted cat lover I certainly wouldn't use that phrase :)

I'm off on a short midweek break but I should be able to pick up any replies, I'd be particularly interested in your take on the discovery chart. However I might not be able to get back to you promptly.

Hugs
 

GreenMoonBeam

Spanner in Works question?


If this was a case happening, say in the 1700s, how pertinent would the combined hard aspects be as offered as an opinion to the part the mother had in the death of her own child?

What, if anything has changed because this is several centuries later?
Salient details may not have been available then either.

If I stand away from the Astrological analysis, the death of the child and the parent's involvement makes this incredibly tragic.

And the tragedy is Mother and child as main players.

GMB
 

tarotlyn

Wonderwoman said:
Tarotlyn and Minderwiz, please do correct me if my amateur observations are on the wrong path.

Do either of you feel/think that the Three Eclipses we are experiencing during this month will serve to enlighten and bring about the truth regarding Caylee's death?? It seems rather poignant that these eclipses happen at the same time of the trial....

Ww
:heart::)Hi! Wonderwoman, If you know about and are talking about Eclipses,
I don't think that you are in the amateur phase of astrology :thumbsup::)

Some astrologers give weight to Eclipses and some just think that they are
VERY STRONG transits. I tend to think the later, myself.

Do I think that these Eclipses have a strong affect on the trial and it's outcome?
Absolutely I do. And do I think we will ever know the truth? I am not sure about that one! :bugeyed:
...if Casey hasn't talked after being in jail for 3 long years, no sure she ever will,
but as the death penatly looms ever closer to her, I suppose she might tell
what really happened, if it meant she 'wouldn't' get the death penalty. She is
very self-centered. I just feel that the jury will either be a hung jury or that they
will choose a lesser charge for her that does not bring the death penalty.
I could be wrong about that...and I have 'not' done any charts on the trial, etc.

I wonder what Minderwiz thinks about this subject? It will be interesting to see
what he has to say about Eclipses and if he will set up a 'trial' or 'guilty or innocent' chart for us?

BTW, I thought there were only two Eclipses this month...a partial Sun Eclipse
was on June 1st, a total Lunar Eclipse coming on June 15th. There is another
partial Sun Eclipse in July on the 1st. Did I miss the third one somewhere?

:heart:HUGS
tarotlyn
 

tarotlyn

GreenMoonBeam said:
Spanner in Works question?


If this was a case happening, say in the 1700s, how pertinent would the combined hard aspects be as offered as an opinion to the part the mother had in the death of her own child?

What, if anything has changed because this is several centuries later?
Salient details may not have been available then either.

If I stand away from the Astrological analysis, the death of the child and the parent's involvement makes this incredibly tragic.

And the tragedy is Mother and child as main players.

GMB

:heart::) You are so right, it is such an awful tragedy :( ... very sad.

I think Minderwiz could answer your question with great detail.
(sorry if you were not directing your question to me, I just popped in to give
my 2 cents :bugeyed: LOL )

:heart: HUGS
tarotlyn
 

tarotlyn

:heart::) ...commenting in 'pink'

Minderwiz said:
I wasn't foregetting I just wanted to see how generalised you saw the combined hard aspects and wanted to know whether you saw anyone with these combined hard aspects as probable murderers/abusers/victims - which you clearly do.
Yes, I clearly have had experiences charting murderers/abusers/victims through the years.




Minderwiz said:
Well I don't think we get Nancy Grace in the UK but as I understand it, she's a legal commentator not an Astrologer...
I mentioned the Nancy Grace show in trying to tell you that this
show is on everyday in the states and constantly broadcasts news regarding
missing persons and murdered adults as well as children (up to our knees)...
to show you that this type of parental murder is more prevalent than you might
have thought. I never said she was an astrologer.



Minderwiz said:
-perhaps you could give me some information on her consideration of cases which explicitly involve the combined hard aspects - as it's you that's claiming these aspects are so prevelent and so universal in such cases, I'll leave you to do the trawling - but I'd be interested in the results
Perhaps you could go on youtube.com and look for her shows,
or perhaps you could do research to prove to yourself what you want to regarding
whether there are prevalent aspects that are universal. I don't need that
proven to me nor do I need to prove that to you because that is NOT what
my original post was about. You made it into more than what I first talked about.
Perhaps you can contact every police station in the world and trawl
for yourself because that is not my intention. I am not concerned about the
whole world, you are. I already know what these type of aspects can do.








Minderwiz said:
So the combined hard aspects CAN be overridden by other factors by people who are on a spiritual path - apart from circumstance (and Casey could be found innocent) how do you know that she ISN'T on a spiritual path, when there's no accurate chart for her? What astrological evidence have you? I can understand a view that everyone in a relationship with these aspects will end up killing or abusing but you've now come up with an exception - how do you know astrologically that Casey is not spiritually inclined?
She may be, BUT then why are we here discussing why
I think she killed her own daughter due to COMBINED HARD ASPECTS between
her and her daughter? People can be Spiritual and then can slip off of that path.
Who knows, maybe being in jail for years will grow her Spirituality.

I don't think she will be found innocent, but she may get a lesser charge because
of her young age. And it totally depends on the jury and what they think by the
end of the trial, which should be in 2 to 3 weeks from now.

ETA: I think there could be an appeal against the way this judge allowed certain items to
come into the trial as proper evidence (according to the allowance of the law).

It doesn't matter what I think astrologically because I don't think any of the lawyers
involved in this case or the police are interested in astrological aspects.



Minderwiz said:
Well I've been charting for 45 years but charting alone is insufficient - there needs to be a philosophic and astrological structure to the process, otherwise we have data but not knowledge - the latter requires the ability to appraise and interpret the data and to draw conclusions, which in turn requires the structures for doing that.
I agree and I do have the philosophic and astrological structure
to my process and I do have the data and the knowledge. My first 10 years was
heavily into astrology books combined with real people charts, then out into
the world 'heavily' to real people and real charts for over 25 years. I do have the
ability to appraise and interpret the data and to draw my own conclusions,
which I did. I used my own structure, not yours, to come to my conclusions.
I don't need 'your' structures to analyze combined hard aspects. I also do NOT
have to prove myself to you either. I know my own experience.



Minderwiz said:
In the question I posed, the only way to settle the issue is to have a series of formal structured investigations - these may indeed confirm the hard aspect view or establish clear limits to it's effectiveness. That might sound a negative comment but I put it forward in a positive way -
What issue? I didn't start this post to have a formal structured
investigation by you. I don't need to confirm the hard aspect view or establish
clear limits to it's effectiveness because I already know what these type of
combined hard aspects are capable of, and that was what I posted in my earlier posts.





Minderwiz said:
I think we should do much more to formally investigate our Astrological tenets. I've argued elsewhere for such tests for the outers especially but with little interest.
I wonder why? Why there was little interest for testing the 'outers?'
Maybe people don't want to keep proving themselves because all the debating and/or lectures or drawn out lessons in disagreement with them.



Minderwiz said:
I didn't actually think you were LOL And the answer to your point is that I have both the 'book knowledge and the practical experience to do such analysis - however the last 10 years has led me down a different path and I have little interest in using the outers but a lot of interest in looking at murder and abuse cases - hence my other post which goes some way in confirming your conclusions.
That is really too bad (you have no interest in the outers) because
the 'outers' have a LOT to do with the murder and abuse cases that I have had
experience with. Maybe this is why we do not have a meeting of the minds.
I am not changing my mind and I dont' thing you are not changing yours...LOL



Minderwiz said:
Hmm I would have thought that you were open enough to other views to see that a different approach might actually shed light on the 'combined hard aspects' - my analysis reached a reasonably similar conclusion i.e. that Casey was involved in the disposal of the remains (now admitted) but that it's unlikely that the grandfather was involved, as per defence claim. The conclusion is that she probably killed, either intentionally or accidentally Caylee and then disposed of the body. Either way a serious criminal offence was committed.
I am a very open person and you can use all your approaches you want to.
(thus the thread going in other directions than I had intended with my thread).


I never mentioned anything about the grandfather, but I do agree with you on that one,
I don't believe he was involved as Casey's lawyers say. I agree totally with your
conclusion that she probably killed, either intentionally or accidentally Caylee
and then disposed of the body. And, YES, this is a serious criminal act.

I just don't think she will get the death sentence, however I could be wrong.
I have not charted the trial date nor have done any charts that would pertain
to whether the jury will find her guilty nor, if they do, what type of sentence
she would receive.



Minderwiz said:
However if you're not interested in confirmatory evidence which doesn't simply say combined hard aspects = guilt = combined hard aspects, then it's a bit of a pity as we could have taken this to quite a deep level.
Look, Minderwiz, take it as far as you like...use all the confirmatory evidence you like.
I have already stated my thoughts on her guilt or innocence using my own method of COMBINED HARD ASPECTS,
some of which you do not recognize (the ones using Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto).
So, if you are interested, as you say, in murder and abuse cases, then go ahead
and use 'your' method. I am very sure that you will come to the same conclusion
that I have. We may be taking different roads to the same final destination.
That would be fine with me.



Minderwiz said:
As you already have decided that only the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS are the only possible relevant astrological information and that you have years of analysing them, what is the point of anyone commenting on them, as you will not change your mind if they disagree, and won't learn anything if the do agree - I offered you an alternative approach that came to similar conclusions (and actually used verified charts) I'm not saying the alternative is a replacement or a better or even the 'right' approach - I'm saying that maybe it's a complementary view that with some discussion both ways might lead to a deeper understanding - yet you have fixated on the idea that I'm opposing you or that because I raise concerns I must be only into 'book learning' and don't do charts.
Well, Minderwiz, this is how you come across to me. And yes, I have
decided about these combined hard aspects, yes I have from my own experience.

If you have an alternative approach, go ahead and discuss it. And no, why should I change
my view if I know that what I have discovered is correct (for me)? ...and I have done that.
I doubt if years of hands on experience can be changed within me. If something said in a book
hasn't been evidenced in actual experience for me, then maybe 'that' I would doubt. I can't
doubt my own charting 'experiences.'

I didn't post this thread with the idea that there would be those that would
be in such debative disagreement with me. I thought all astrologers used COMBINED HARD ASPECTS...
...if they (you) want to delve into the deep deep sea of details, be my guest Minderwiz.

You are so good at the details, (no flattery here...just stating the facts) that I will leave
it all to you. What more could I say to you anyway. I never came to 'your' astrology forum
to do all this debating. I merely was 'sharing' my own thoughts and take on the situation
of certain aspects - not the whole astrological enchilada, which I do understand.
I just did not want to go into all the details, only the combined hard aspects between
mother and daughter.






Minderwiz said:
Yes I've challenged some of your points, more because I wasn't clear how far you took the aspects without the context of a chart (and therefore house and sign placements) - I think you've answered my questions.

I don't think that of themselves the combined hard aspects provide a complete explanation - that's a matter of opinion though - but I don't see any a priori reason why their prediction in this case cannot be tested using other methods to see if the same conclusion is reached.
Yes, they do for me, and that is my opinion.


Minderwiz said:
So don't be so defensive - accept that there are other real astrological systems that pre-date Alan Leo and might actually throw light on an issue and indeed work in tandem with a modern approach, highlighting different but relevant points and often coming to the same conclusions.
I don't have to accept anything unless I see it with my own eyes, you know?
I can't merely accept any system someone else tells me to just because they think I should,
but I can accept the astrological systems I have been trained in...
...BUT BETTER (for me) is to trust what I have experienced out there in the world while charting
the situation at the same time. That I know works for me.

I didn't come to this forum to try out different systems, why? Because I already have one that works (for me).
You can use what system works for you and I will use what system works for me.

BTW, I am not defensive I am just me. I don't think I have to think exactly as
someone else tells me that I have to. No one is stopping you from doing you own
research on this case. I suspect that you have more book knowledge than I do and that you
can shed light maybe in a different way. (not flattering here, just stating the facts as I see them)
Also, I like myself the way I am and I like that I have gained many many years of actual experience out there,
which is much more valuable then any text in a book.

Just so you know, I do have astrological book knowledge as well, however I don't
like bogging down people with so many details (unless they ask) because it just
pushes people away from astrology because they feel lost in the details. We as
astrologers (I think) would do well (and give credit to astrology) IF we would not bog down
others with such heavy information when they may be just starting to learn astrology.

I have found that too many words and too much information (at a time) is usually
overwhelming to others and maybe that is why they are not interested in continued
discussions with you regarding the 'outers.' Isn't that possible? Just a thought and is
what I feel when I read all your brilliant posts (not flattering you, just stating a fact!).


Minderwiz said:
I've had quite a few discussions on the outers with another Astrologer here, and we fundamentally disagree but I have to happily admit that when we look at a chart or a situation, we are in general agreement far more often than we disagree.
...case in point...I hate disagreements or long debates or discussions
that are overwhelming to others, much like this one. LOL


Minderwiz said:
I would have said that there is more than one way to skin a cat but as a devout and devoted cat lover I certainly wouldn't use that phrase :)
Ah...the human side of you...LOVE IT! :heart: and LOVE CATS!

Minderwiz said:
I'm off on a short midweek break but I should be able to pick up any replies, I'd be particularly interested in your take on the discovery chart. However I might not be able to get back to you promptly.

Okay, now you have peaked my interest...'discovery chart?'
What chart, etc... can you talk about it here?


Minderwiz said:
HUGS?...thank you then...cuddling up to me, aye? Ha Ha (little jokie! :joke: )

Okay...now I wait for your 'discovery chart'...hope I am not opening a can of worms here! YIKES...LOL

:heart: ...and HUGS for you too!
tarotlyn
 

tarotlyn

wow...I finally was able to reply to Minderwiz :bugeyed: I had to put it into my
post 'piece by piece' before it would take...it was like I was being blocked from this thread.

all better now! (unless my above post mysteriously disappears again! :bugeyed:)
...let's hope not.

I anxiously await Minderwiz's 'discovery chart' regarding the Casey Anthony murder case. :)

:heart:
tarotlyn
 

Minderwiz

Tarotlyn,

We got into this rather debate because, as an aside in my first post I sounded a note of caution about the lack of an accurate chart for Casey - it was my intention to proceed directly to the substance of your post but you rather forcibly told me that an accurate birth chart wasn't necessary - initially for Casey and then for Caylee - all that matters is the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS, and I was rather taken aback with the claim, so I tried to ensure that you meant what you said. I understand that you do.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I never did - I just wanted to be sure of what you were saying - if it was not obvious to me, that might well be my fault, not yours.

However why haven't you published this? You have a method which can detect possible future child abuse at the date of birth! All we need is the date of birth of child and parents and we instantly know whether there is a strong possibility of abuse. This will revolutionise child protection approaches and save lives. Even if it's only 50% reliable it will make a significant difference. As a bi-product it will prove to the professional and scientific community conclusively that Astrology works, the philosopher's stone of modern Astrology. I can't wait to see Richard Dawkins' face

Please publish - make sure it gets noted in the professional journals of care professionals and indeed by the police services, etc. I KNOW the levels of abuse and I agree with your point about them - they are unacceptably high. With such a simple test, requiring only dates of birth - we need to use it at a professional level.

If you want to see my discovery chart and comments, (which seems to have been ignored since) look at post #6 - I might have gone further but we got sidetracked.

GMB

Clearly combined hard aspects, involving Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were not available in the Seventeenth Centuries, However an assessment would still be possible. This would use natal charts - preferably accurately recorded, but if not a rectified one. Lilly devotes some time in identifying factors which would point to a violent death as opposed to a natural one and even the manner of that violent death - he was a practising consulting Astrologer, i.e. he did not just write he was a regular consultant. He would also use techniques such as primary directions, solar returns and transits to identify the most likely time of death (or in a modern phrase, when the risk of death was highest).

Was it as successful as Tarotlyn's combined hard aspects - well there are clearly issues that would militate against it. We need natal charts, and there was no internet to enable you to cast your own and Astrologers were relatively a lot more expensive (and respected) than they are today. There was also no fully organised police and child protection services but there is evidence that what 'police' services there were actually took the views of Astrologers seriously - but in short - Yes it could be and was done.
 

tarotlyn

Minderwiz said:
Tarotlyn,

We got into this rather debate because, as an aside in my first post I sounded a note of caution about the lack of an accurate chart for Casey - it was my intention to proceed directly to the substance of your post but you rather forcibly told me that an accurate birth chart wasn't necessary - initially for Casey and then for Caylee - all that matters is the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS, and I was rather taken aback with the claim, so I tried to ensure that you meant what you said. I understand that you do.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I never did - I just wanted to be sure of what you were saying - if it was not obvious to me, that might well be my fault, not yours.
It was really difficult getting my message through to you, but I think
that what you just said tells me you finally understand what I was saying:
Which is: Yes, I can see abusers, murders, thieves, drunks, liars, druggies,
etc. WITHOUT birth time charts. All I need is their birth dates. I don't even
need the place of birth.

Of course, I have to psychically decide (with reasonable closeness) the Moon
position (knowing that it could have a daily movement of between 10 and 14 degrees).
However, I DON'T actually need the Moon position to get to the main
HARD ASPECTS in anyone's chart.






Minderwiz said:
However why haven't you published this? You have a method which can detect possible future child abuse at the date of birth! All we need is the date of birth of child and parents and we instantly know whether there is a strong possibility of abuse. This will revolutionise child protection approaches and save lives. Even if it's only 50% reliable it will make a significant difference. As a bi-product it will prove to the professional and scientific community conclusively that Astrology works, the philosopher's stone of modern Astrology. I can't wait to see Richard Dawkins' face

Because I don't want to run into critics and aggravation, much like this thread.
I mean, they might 'eventually' hear and listen to what I see, but not without a lot of aggravation
to myself! I do not (usually) allow my life to be filled with such negative emotion.
I have paid my dues to society, my whole life, by counseling, helping, and caring for everyone
I have encountered in my life.

I even, at one time, helped a psychiatrist by charting his patients for him 'before'
he would have his first session with them. However, I found out after several months,
that he was using my charting HARD AND SOFT ASPECT findings to 'seduce' his
women patients right into a hot tub :bugeyed: That was totally unforgivable in my eyes,
so I broke all contact with him. Yes, I have paid my dues. I am retired from all of it now,
I have taught what I know to others along the way. Some listened and some didn't.
It was up to them to take it further.

I don't feel like I discovered anything more special than what most astrologers
already know by using their knowledge they already have.
However, they WOULD HAVE TO UTILIZE the aspects involving Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.
That is where you and I part ways, since you have state you don't consider 'outers.'

Pluto, especially is very violent in most cases. You could arrive where I get (regarding abuse cases)
with just using Mars, but Pluto is the ONE that spells out actually more of an 'intentional' murder to me.
Mars and Uranus in a hard aspect could cause murder, but probably more of an explosive, quick,
unintentional event, not one that was premeditated.

Neptune involved = mysterious, hidden facts around the murder or abuse,
lying, drugs, and drink surrounding the event, most likely. And of course there
is much much more you can see than just the above things I just mentioned
in life. I don't just see the hard aspects, I also see the soft aspects, as any astrologer does.
When looking for 'certain' traits in a person, you just look to 'certain' aspects. Like, for instance,
when you rent a house to someone, you can look at their aspects and see if they will be upright
in paying their rent.

Of course, there are times that people lose their jobs, and can't pay, but I am
not talking about that. I am talking about the type of person that would actually
delay and lie to their landlord (at the slightest bump in the road) and try to take
advantage of that landlord. Using just HARD - or- SOFT ASPECTS, you can really
see the 'type' of worker you would be hiring for a job....yes with ONLY the birth date.
You don't need the time or place of birth to do this. I use those details when they are available,
but you can glean quite enough information on a person to see their 'potential' path.
I say 'potential' because they DO have a choice to give in or not give in to those aspects.

See, once I got out of that 'strict detail,' I was able to actually apply my astrological information
to the reality of the situation. I studied HEAVILY (astrology texts along with actual people)
starting at age 18 and till about 28.
ETA: Then, over 25 years, I just was traveling a lot and charted EVERYONE I met and I still
do that to this day. I taught it astrology one time, BUT I don't teach it anymore.
But what I may have done differently than most, is that 'everywhere' I went, 'everyone' I met,
or just talked to, I did their charts and then 'watched them' to see what made them tick and to
see exactly which astrological information I had learned was actually real and valuable.

That is how I found out I DON'T need birth times or places to figure out people.
This is not a special skill, it is what ANY astrologer can do, IF they can get past
all that bog-down detail that most regular people don't understand anyway.
This method can be useful to the world, as you say...but only if the world will listen...
and I found that it won't. So I just used the knowledge in my own little world to
help or to warn those if I need to. I no longer go out looking for opportunities to do this
but rather feel that those in need will be led to me. And that has proven to be the case,
since I basically retired from the whole subject. I am not actively pursuing attention
or trying to make headway with any knowledge I have, which is the same knowledge
ANY astrologer already has IF they will not get in their own way. Hope I made sense.







Minderwiz said:
Please publish - make sure it gets noted in the professional journals of care professionals and indeed by the police services, etc. I KNOW the levels of abuse and I agree with your point about them - they are unacceptably high. With such a simple test, requiring only dates of birth - we need to use it at a professional level.
Easier said than done! You see how difficult it was for me to get
you to see or understand what I was really trying to say. Especially since I just
came to this thread to 'share' certain ASPECTS with other possible astrologers on here.
It never dawned on me that they wouldn't know what I was talking about.
And I tried to post my original post so that anyone could basically understand.

All they had to do was to look up those aspects (in my post) and read astrological text
and see for themselves. Hopefully, they would find text that wasn't sugar-coated! :bugeyed:
They may have to do a LOT of reading to do to bypass all the sugared text.









Minderwiz said:
If you want to see my discovery chart and comments, (which seems to have been ignored since) look at post #6 - I might have gone further but we got sidetracked.
Right off...in your post # 6 you said:
Minderwiz said:
"Caylee's chart (which is seemingly accurate). She's too young to look at personality/temperament."
See, I don't agree with that statement...I think she WAS old enough to see her
personality and temperament. You can see that in a little young puppy, BTW.
ETA: I have even charted animals...yep...I used to breed Chihuahuas, and I would
chart every little Chi that was born into my hands! LOL Plus, I charted ALL
my animals in my life, which have been a LOT. Plus, I charted a lot of very young
children as well, and they have personalties and temperaments galore.
Personality and temperament start relatively at a VERY young age, if you watch.


Maybe try, once you have set up a chart (either sunrise or birth certificate info chart)
and then look past all the details for a moment, and just look at the ASPECTS ONLY
(both hard and soft aspects), then think about what you know about each planet
that is involved in each aspect and blend them together (each set I am talking about)
...like Mars square Uranus, etc. Then you should be able to see how I do this.

Oh, BTW, as I said, I DO use details, but not actually necessary, when I have the
other details available. Like you said: "Caylee's Mars was in her 4th house.
(my view is that the 4th house represents the mother and the 10th house represents the father)
Well...that is a biggie if there ever was one. War (Mars) in the home, by the mother (4th)
...so I could add to what I found by saying that the abuse (maybe even the murder) probably actually occurred
in that home, that was where Caylee and Casey resided, which actually was the grandparents home.
All of the baby's stuff and most of her stuff was still in that home, so I don't consider that
they had actually moved out. When they stayed at various of Casey's boyfriends (overnight)
they were basically living out of a child backpack and Casey's duffelbag.

It is possible that the baby died (maybe even accidentally by an overdose of
chloroform), elsewhere, though.

Note: I didn't use a lot of other details in their charts, because:
1. I only had one accurate birth time chart and a sunrise chart for the other.
2. The COMBINED HARD ASPECTS (without all the detail) IS SO STRONG by themselves!
3. I was just posting a commentary ONLY about their COMBINED HARD ASPECTS and
I didn't dream I would be under the knife, so to speak. (microscope)
I thought all astrologers knew about just looking at the hard aspects, especially
'combined hard aspects.'


:heart:HUGS
tarotlyn
 

Minderwiz

tarotlyn said:
See, I don't agree with that statement...I think she WAS old enough to see her
personality and temperament. You can see that in a little young puppy, BTW.
ETA: I have even charted animals...yep...I used to breed Chihuahuas, and I would
chart every little Chi that was born into my hands! LOL Plus, I charted ALL
my animals in my life, which have been a LOT. Plus, I charted a lot of very young
children as well, and they have personalties and temperaments galore.
Personality and temperament start relatively at a VERY young age, if you watch.

Sorry I didn't make my point crystal clear. I'm not saying that she has no temperment at that age - obviously she has - However in terms of the relationship with Casey and the sad events we are considering, Caylee is not in an equal relationship with Casey, she is (sadly was) very much at Casey's mercy, as is any child of that age to its carer. Yes, Caylee's personality may have affected Casey, but as the adult in the relationship, I'm sure you'll agree that we cannot excuse or mitigate her actions (assuming they are as we both think) by treating this as an equal partnership. However if you want me to do a summary of Caylee's temprement I'm quite happy too.

tarotlyn said:
I DO use details, but not actually necessary, when I have the
other details available. Like you said: "Caylee's Mars was in her 4th house.
(my view is that the 4th house represents the mother and the 10th house represents the father)
Well...that is a biggie if there ever was one. War (Mars) in the home, by the mother (4th)
...so I could add to what I found by saying that the abuse (maybe even the murder) probably actually occurred
in that home, that was where Caylee and Casey resided, which actually was the grandparents home.
All of the baby's stuff and most of her stuff was still in that home, so I don't consider that
they had actually moved out. When they stayed at various of Casey's boyfriends (overnight)
they were basically living out of a child backpack and Casey's dufflebag.

It is possible that the baby died (maybe even accidentally by an overdose of
chloroform), elsewhere, though.

Caylee's Mars is actually in her ninth House, though Mars rules the fourth. I don't want to get sidetracked into the mother/father House rulerships but there's good Astrological reasons why the fourth is father (and family) and the tenth is Mother (father's partner). Although those reasons have stood for over two millenniatThe main reason I don't want to be sidetracked is that Casey was a single parent and it's very arguable that she should take the fourth or indeed that the grandfather should take the fourth. However in this context the fourth is also Home and home is ruled by debilitated Mars. Home is not particularly nice place to be and we both agree on that one.

tarotlyn said:
Note: I didn't use a lot of other details in their charts, because:
1. I only had one accurate birth time chart and a sunrise chart for the other.
2. The COMBINED HARD ASPECTS (without all the detail) IS SO STRONG by themselves!
3. I was just posting a commentary ONLY about their COMBINED HARD ASPECTS and
I didn't dream I would be under the knife, so to speak. (microscope)
I thought all astrologers knew about just looking at the hard aspects, especially
'combined hard aspects.'

My point as I tried at length to explain was to explicitly state the need for some caution in using a birth chart of uncertain provenance - not to dispute the validity of combined hard aspects, I never had chance to get that far LOL - (and if you're happy using them I don't want you to change). I thought you would be aware of the need for some caution but put the statement in for those members who would not have spotted that a sunrise chart is a 'guess' and would take it as completely accurate. Caution does not equal disagreement or opposition it simply means we don't have a full picture of Casey but it's possible to make some statements about the relationship. I never got much chance to then move on LOL.

However, for the record I did know what you were talking about - I just found it difficult to believe that you were so absolute in your views and that was what i then sought to determine. Incidently, I know quite a few practicing professionals of significant standing who wouldn't use combined hard aspects in that way, even though they know about them, or even use them at all. There's diversity in our profession (and perhaps a good thing too) :)

Well by now I would have thought that t least one other member would have leapt in but as he hasn't, I'm retiring for a few days to enjoy my holiday :)
 

tarotlyn

:heart::) Minderwiz, I'm sorry for my delay in replying to you, which was due to the recent upgrade...

...commenting in 'pink'

Minderwiz said:
Sorry I didn't make my point crystal clear. I'm not saying that she has no temperment at that age - obviously she has - However in terms of the relationship with Casey and the sad events we are considering, Caylee is not in an equal relationship with Casey, she is (sadly was) very much at Casey's mercy, as is any child of that age to its carer. Yes, Caylee's personality may have affected Casey, but as the adult in the relationship, I'm sure you'll agree that we cannot excuse or mitigate her actions (assuming they are as we both think) by treating this as an equal partnership. However if you want me to do a summary of Caylee's temprement I'm quite happy too.
Well, you did say that Caylee was to young for us to see her personality or temperment (in your post #6).
And I never said they had an equal partnership. I just talked about their 'combined' hard aspects.
If you feel like you want to do a summary of Caylee's temperment, that is great.







Caylee's Mars is actually in her ninth House, though Mars rules the fourth. I don't want to get sidetracked into the mother/father House rulerships but there's good Astrological reasons why the fourth is father (and family) and the tenth is Mother (father's partner). Although those reasons have stood for over two millenniatThe main reason I don't want to be sidetracked is that Casey was a single parent and it's very arguable that she should take the fourth or indeed that the grandfather should take the fourth. However in this context the fourth is also Home and home is ruled by debilitated Mars. Home is not particularly nice place to be and we both agree on that one.
Yes we agree regarding Caylee's 4th house not being very nice.

As far as the 4th representing the mother and the 10th house representing the father,
this has been debated by astrologers as long as I can remember. And I have
checked it out thoroughly, to my satisfaction, and I stand on the side
of 4th house = mother and the 10th = father...works for me. You can choose the
reverse if you like. There is no hard fast rule, in my eyes, not when a lot of astrologers
cannot agree 100 % on that information.

My reasons are as follows: (not talking about Caylee's chart right now)
1. The 4th house is normally represented by the Cancer sign
(which, to me, is more motherly than fatherly) (to me)

2. The 10th house is normally represented by the Capricorn sign
(which is more fatherly than motherly) (to me)

or put another way (my simple way):

4th house = Cancer sign = nurturer (as in mother)...in my mind

10th house = Capricorn sign = disciplinarian (as in father)...in my mind

Minderwiz, will you please allow me 'my own choice' in the 4th vs/ 10th parental representative?


You mentioned the 10th being representative of the "father's partner."

I think it could IF it was a business type partner. I say that because I normally look to the
7th house for the "father's partner" (the mother, the wife) not to the 10th house for her.

Not every astrologer, professional or not, charts or thinks exactly the same way each other does.
And there are so many areas of debate in astrology methods and preferences. In my case,
I studied for years, then went out there and found out what actually worked...for me, not for
you and certainly not for any other astrologers. I can only post about what I KNOW works for me.

There is more dissecting in this thread than I experienced in the biology classes of my youth.
ETA: And NO I could NOT dissect an animal! YIKES...poor animals! :(

I merely popped in here to comment on some 'combined hard aspects' and I did not want to
dissect the whole astrological historical enchilada. Right now, I feel that my original
post has been hijacked by too much sidetracking. If 'I' sidetracked, it was in supporting my own words,
after they were dissected in this thread. If a poster makes a comment to me that is side tracking,
I just will have to keep replying in support of my original words or my own already proven
(to me) beliefs.








Minderwiz said:
My point as I tried at length to explain was to explicitly state the need for some caution in using a birth chart of uncertain provenance - not to dispute the validity of combined hard aspects, I never had chance to get that far LOL - (and if you're happy using them I don't want you to change).
Because you chose to go in other directions. I am glad you don't
want me to change, because as I said before, I could not change what I have
already experienced and, anyway, why should I cast a blind eye towards the
years of my experience.







Minderwiz said:
I thought you would be aware of the need for some caution but put the statement in for those members who would not have spotted that a sunrise chart is a 'guess' and would take it as completely accurate. Caution does not equal disagreement or opposition it simply means we don't have a full picture of Casey but it's possible to make some statements about the relationship.
I apologize to all members regarding a 'sunrise' chart. It is a chart that put one's
Sun placement on the first degree of the ascendant and it's sign's first degree becomes the
first degree of the ascendant point WHEN you don't have the exact time of birth.
Thus a 'sunrise' chart. Sorry everyone.

As far as 'caution,' I used my own caution regarding Casey's chart, because I went back
and edited my 1st post and made sure readers would know that her's was a 'sunrise' chart
because, so far, no one seems to have Casey's accurate or proven birth time.







Minderwiz said:
I never got much chance to then move on LOL.
LOL, Minderwiz, you went off on differnt tangents, and I had nothing
to do with you moving on...you had all the chances there were. It was up to you
to move on. You keep questioning my actions, etc. so I had to answer them, right?
You could have moved on if you wanted to, no one stopped you but yourself.







Minderwiz said:
However, for the record I did know what you were talking about - I just found it difficult to believe that you were so absolute in your views and that was what i then sought to determine. Incidently, I know quite a few practicing professionals of significant standing who wouldn't use combined hard aspects in that way, even though they know about them, or even use them at all. There's diversity in our profession (and perhaps a good thing too) :)
You know, Minderwiz, I am not concerned about all practicing professional
astrologers who don't use combined hard aspects in the way I do. I am not out
to change their methods. I am not out to change anyone's mind. But I am going
to hold my own from what I have discovered from my own experiences in charting
TONS of people. For me, the proof is in the pudding. What other astrologers do
is up to them. There are so many variations in astrological thinking that it
isn't important to me to debate and debate and debate it. I found what I needed
as an astrologer and I do not need to worry about what they think, as long as I
see that it works...and it does for me.






Minderwiz said:
Well by now I would have thought that t least one other member would have leapt in but as he hasn't, I'm retiring for a few days to enjoy my holiday :)
Well, thank goodness for me, if the person you speak about
("he" that didn't leap in here) IF he reacts to me like you did. Then I pray that he
does not show up. YIKES! LOL ...believe me, one of you is enough for me to reply to...:bugeyed:

Hope you are having a wonderful holiday :heart:
HUGS
tarotlyn