The Occult Achievement of the 20th Century-The Thoth

Bernice

Professor X:The fact is that if someone doesnt understand the Kabbalah and other occult subjects they may indeed have a difficult time reading the Thoth,thats a fact.
I wonder how you reached that conclusion?
I know people who are excellent readers using the Thoth imagery, but have no grasp or interest in the underlaying occulism. It's card deck, and if used for divination it's merely a tool :)

However, the study of Qabalah, astrology, numerology, etc. can help if you prefer to deeply understand how & why this deck was created.


Bee :)
 

Grigori

Moderator Note

Hi everyone,

Can you please focus on discussing the topic at hand, i.e. the Thoth deck in the context of other tarot and occult material.

Please do not focus on other posters who may be participating, as such things aren't helpful to anyone.

Thanks
G :)
 

Cerulean

If I were to compare Manly P Hall's tarot the Knapp Hall and Aleister Crowley's Thoth...

I have bought and read and looked again and again at the Revised New Art Tarot and original 1920's to 1930's essays and writings of Manly P. Hall--he was fortunate to have met and been sponsored by a friendly heiress to travel far and wide to lecture in masonic lodges and public venues when Theosophy's fascination with different cultural inheritances was quite fashionable.

Manly P. Hall gave short sound bytes of his gathered tarot wisdom from the Curtiss' Key to the Universe and Key to Destiny and pythagorean numerology and generic astrology...he commented briefly on A.E. Waite in a somewhat sarcastic tone, I believe. I am not certain I read anything in terms of his opinion of Crowley.

The Knapp Hall tarot I like as a charming mix of things, but there's kind of an innocent and strange borrowing of obscure symbols in his trying to make the Art Tarot a mixed meditative tool. I thnk what he thought he supposedly expressed with his eight spoked wheel in his tarot was deep enough to say he understood his own symbolism.

But overall I believe the Knapp Hall as tarot art as charming in a naïve 1920's-30ks romanticsm and the radio and book lectures and ideas of Manly Hall as curiously introductory and bland...my opinion of course.

I only found one bio on Manly hall and to my disappointment tarot was not even mentioned even though his lectures around 1931 have several ads for the deck. Decker's notes in History of the Occult Tarot seem to be the best source of reading about Hall and tarot.

Waite and Crowley have considerably more writings and biographical links with tarot. So does Paul Foster Case. I really do not consider Hall's impact on tarot history as long-lasting as Crowley. I seem to consider the Knapp Hall more as one among other 20th century tarot experiments that collectors or art tarot enthuasts chat about...

Still thinking...

Cerulean
 

Aeon418

Bernice said:
I know people who are excellent readers using the Thoth imagery, but have no grasp or interest in the underlaying occulism. It's card deck, and if used for divination it's merely a tool :)

However, the study of Qabalah, astrology, numerology, etc. can help if you prefer to deeply understand how & why this deck was created.
I can't completely agree with your last statement, Bernice. The occult aspects of the Thoth aren't merely the 'how & why' of the deck. They also add levels of complexity, depth, and richness to the reading experience. If someone doesn't want to use the Thoth at that level, fine. But it's there for those who do.

Beyond that this whole issue is clouded by something else. For some people the occult aspects come with an unfortunate and unwanted bit of baggage in the shape of Aleister Crowley. The subsequent dismissal of the occult side to the deck is often motivated by nothing more than a desire to remove Crowley from the Thoth Tarot.
 

Bernice

Aeon418: The occult aspects of the Thoth aren't merely the 'how & why' of the deck. They also add levels of complexity, depth, and richness to the reading experience. If someone doesn't want to use the Thoth at that level, fine. But it's there for those who do.
Exactly my point :)

Bee :)
 

Aeon418

Bernice said:
Exactly my point
Yes, the portion you chose to highlight was. But the occult aspects are still more than the 'how & why' that you suggest they are.
 

Chiska

Aeon418 said:
The occult aspects of the Thoth aren't merely the 'how & why' of the deck. They also add levels of complexity, depth, and richness to the reading experience. If someone doesn't want to use the Thoth at that level, fine. But it's there for those who do.

I started out using the Thoth as it was - just pictures and how they made me feel, etc. I have never had such vivid cards as these - and the readings have been amazingly clear and deep.

But then I noticed that there was more going on and curiosity took over. Now, as I add a little more information by learning some of the occult aspects, I *am* getting more "complexity, depth, and richness" in my reading experience. Sure, it is just a tiny scratch on the surface, but it is a start.

As an occult achievement - I think that bringing something like this to the populace (so to speak) is a huge accomplishment. How many people have started with the ,"OOH! Pretty Pictures" response and then have gone on to explore and study the occult aspects of the deck. Anything that can draw people in and offer an invitation to go beyond, is a huge achievement, occult or otherwise.
 

Rosanne

Chiska said:
But then I noticed that there was more going on and curiosity took over. Now, as I add a little more information by learning some of the occult aspects, I *am* getting more "complexity, depth, and richness" in my reading experience. Sure, it is just a tiny scratch on the surface, but it is a start.
snip... snip...
Anything that can draw people in and offer an invitation to go beyond, is a huge achievement, occult or otherwise.

No rant just facts!!!! Thank you Chiska for posting this.
This is what I believe happens with the Thoth and if just people would try and use it, there is a natural progression. You don't have to go with the flow (and you are no less intelligent or informed if you don't) - but you can- no screeds of quotes and rituals- just ease it on in. No phantoms, no hisssing, no wooooing in the night, no baggage. Just a beautiful deck and a growing awareness that can take you someplace if you wish.
You made my day Criska!!!! :royal:
~Rosanne
 

Aeon418

Rosanne said:
Just a beautiful deck and a growing awareness that can take you someplace if you wish.
It can, if you wish. Unless you're persuaded otherwise.
 

Grigori

Chiska said:
As an occult achievement - I think that bringing something like this to the populace (so to speak) is a huge accomplishment.

That is really beautiful Chiska, I think you're right on that. And do think this is where Frieda should get all the credit, not just for her artwork, but also the deeper vision of the Tarot that she badgered Crowley into committing to paper and design. Presenting something as dense as Crowley's take on the Tarot (well, really his take on everything) and presenting it in a format that is so attractive and appealing to people is quite an amazing accomplishment.