Reversals - Random or not?

Krystophe

Barleywine said:
I do the same thing with Elemental Dignities and reversals: I don't think one supplants or supersedes the other because they really tackle the issue in different ways. EDs increase or decrease the "power" and "purity" of a cards expression, for good or ill, while reversals change (often subtly) how that expression is received. One is a matter of "quantity," the other more a matter of "quality."

This makes sense.

It also touches on another reason why I moved away from using inverted cards; I started looking at the interaction of elemental correspondences. That seemed to me like a more "organic" approach, taking the symbolism inherent to the card into account as opposed to the more "artificial" method of inverting cards. But using both elemental dignities and reversals in the same reading seems cumbersome at best, so the organic method won out.

Barleywine

Krystophe said:
This makes sense.

It also touches on another reason why I moved away from using inverted cards; I started looking at the interaction of elemental correspondences. That seemed to me like a more "organic" approach, taking the symbolism inherent to the card into account as opposed to the more "artificial" method of inverting cards. But using both elemental dignities and reversals in the same reading seems cumbersome at best, so the organic method won out.

I had an epiphany regarding the combination of dignities with reversal when reading Elizabeth Hazel's The Tarot Decoded and have been using her ideas ever since. You can see how I treat them in a general way in my thread under Tarot Spreads titled "Something New I'm Trying."

Krystophe

Barleywine said:
I had an epiphany regarding the combination of dignities with reversal when reading Elizabeth Hazel's The Tarot Decoded and have been using her ideas ever since. You can see how I treat them in a general way in my thread underTarot Spreads titled "Something New I'm Trying."

As a matter of fact, I have examined that thread already; and as always I find your ideas quite enlightening. I'm not quite sure yet whether your method will work for me, but I have been taking small stabs at it with an open mind.

Barleywine

Krystophe said:
As a matter of fact, I have examined that thread already; and as always I find your ideas quite enlightening. I'm not quite sure yet whether your method will work for me, but I have been taking small stabs at it with an open mind.

That's all a spread creator and conceptual tinkerer can ask!

Thanks for your interest. (And if you haven't yet, I suggest you read The Tarot Decoded, it's one of the better applied-theory books I've read lately.)

Krystophe

Barleywine said:
That's all a spread creator and conceptual tinkerer can ask! Thanks for your interest. (And if you haven't yet, I suggest you read The Tarot Decoded, it's one of the better applied-theory books I've read lately.)

I may be inclined to obsess about my own ideas a bit too much, but I still remain interested in exploring new approaches. Thanks for the book recommendation; I've seen it mentioned elsewhere on this forum recently (probably by you, I don't remember). I'll certainly look into it.

Pique Dame

Amanda said:
Pretty impressive actually, that your cards came up so distinct to split a hair like this for you while maintaining the answer.

Yes, it was very impressive! That's the spread that I always think back on if I have a moment of skepticism regarding tarot as a method of divination. But the one reversal was so random that I have to wonder if my shuffling method was really to blame.

I did another lost item spread a few weeks ago for some documents at work that went missing and most of those cards came up reversed, too. My interpretation at the time was that they had accidentally been put in the shredder and would never be found. But they turned up later that same week. So what was the significance of the reversals exactly? Maybe none at all.

I will say this about reversals, though: when my deck has had enough and decides to shut down on me, I can usually tell not just by the garbled message but by all the cards coming out reversed. A couple times when it's happened, I checked the deck just to make sure they weren't *all* reversed and they weren't, but nothing I pulled was upright. That feels decidedly non-random.

Here's one additional thought: I know Amanda and I both subtract the value of reversed cards to get the quint, so maybe--just maybe--some of the cards in the spread are in reverse in order to get the correct quint?

Barleywine

Pique Dame said:
I will say this about reversals, though: when my deck has had enough and decides to shut down on me, I can usually tell not just by the garbled message but by all the cards coming out reversed. A couple times when it's happened, I checked the deck just to make sure they weren't *all* reversed and they weren't, but nothing I pulled was upright. That feels decidedly non-random.

Possibly a deep current of hidden knowledge that you can't get to at that moment?

Krystophe

Pique Dame said:
I know Amanda and I both subtract the value of reversed cards to get the quint...

I'm glad someone brought this up, because it's something that I find interesting but have struggled to resolve to my own satisfaction.

I use a quintessence card sometimes...not routinely with every reading, but when I feel the need for more information to wrap up a spread that otherwise seems to lack a certain cohesion. I experimented briefly with subtracting the value of elementally conflicted cards (since I don't invert cards), and found that it did seem to add another layer of meaning to the reading.

But I eventually discarded the practice because it seemed to be a rather artificial idea imposed from the outside, so to speak, and not to have any basis in the numbering of the cards. Using reversed/ill-dignified cards to "drag" the quintessence back to a lower-numbered card would make sense to me if the lower-numbered cards were somehow weaker or more conflicted themselves than higher-numbered ones. As it stands, though, I just don't see a basis for this practice that's inherent to the cards themselves.

I'm the first to admit that I'm not as strong in numerology as I would like to be (or even basic math...I tend to break into a cold sweat when faced with the prospect of calculating the tip in a restaurant) so if I'm missing something blatantly obvious here -- or even something subtle and complex -- I would be very grateful if anyone could shed further light on this idea.

Amanda

Pique Dame said:
Here's one additional thought: I know Amanda and I both subtract the value of reversed cards to get the quint, so maybe--just maybe--some of the cards in the spread are in reverse in order to get the correct quint?

Yes, actually. I think that could be. Did you notice the Quint of your two different spreads?

Chariot + 8 of Swords + 9 of Wands = 24/Lovers

Lovers + 8 of Swords RX + 9 of Wands = 7/Chariot

You had exactly all four of the same cards involved. The Lovers influence on the 8 of Swords in the first, and the Chariot's influence on the 8 of Swords RX in the second; that is where the "difference" or "split hair" lies in the answer, and therefore the non-random significance of it being upright and reversed (in my opinion).

That is, notice how the Chariot within the first spread was kind of blocked by the upright 8. Then notice how the Chariot Quint became unblocked in a sense by the 8 reversed. It definitely shows a shift in energy towards a stronger decision being made with movement towards that decision between the two time periods you pulled each of these spreads.

Pique Dame

Amanda said:
Yes, actually. I think that could be. Did you notice the Quint of your two different spreads?

Chariot + 8 of Swords + 9 of Wands = 24/Lovers

Lovers + 8 of Swords RX + 9 of Wands = 7/Chariot

You had exactly all four of the same cards involved. The Lovers influence on the 8 of Swords in the first, and the Chariot's influence on the 8 of Swords RX in the second; that is where the "difference" or "split hair" lies in the answer, and therefore the non-random significance of it being upright and reversed (in my opinion).

That is, notice how the Chariot within the first spread was kind of blocked by the upright 8. Then notice how the Chariot Quint became unblocked in a sense by the 8 reversed. It definitely shows a shift in energy towards a stronger decision being made with movement towards that decision between the two time periods you pulled each of these spreads.

I think I remember noting that when I first did the spreads but it was so long ago, it blew my mind all over again! These 2 spreads are a perfect example of why tarot is not random at all and proof that it really does work. How crazy is that? Thanks for bringing it back to my attention, Amanda!!