Two of pentacles...change change change

similia said:

To me that is different than other cards that describe change. Its more about gradual and constant entropy, the type of change that is natural and to be expected in the world of form.

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In what sense are you using the word entropy? Degeneration, decline, break down, disorganization? To me the force of the 2 of Disks is the very thing that counters entropy because it's always moving. It's the movement, the change, that maintains the eternal balance in this card.

Personally I would ascribe the forces of entropy to an ill-dignified 2 of Disks, where the constrictive Saturnian - Capricorn aspect gains ascendancy over the expansive qualities of Jupiter. (Of course it can go the other way too with equally disastrous results. BOOM!!! )

Also the 7 of Disks is a good entropy candidate, as is the ill-dignified 10 of Disks.

A good place to look at what entrropy means would be wikipedia, here is a link.

What it basically means that in every object, sure the object looks like it is solid, liquid, or whatever, and it is not moving. But, if you look at the molecular level, the atoms and the molecules are in a constant state of movement. Sure, they may be confined to the structure of the object, but that doesn't alter the fact that the molecules inside are in constant movement or motion.

So, I guess what similia is saying that with everything there is always movement, sure it may look like it isn't, but there is. I mean, for instance if you are with the same person day in and day out, the changes that person may exhibit may be so small and so gradual that you wouldn't notice the change. However, if you are someone who sees someone at one time, and then later down the track, whether that is a month or a year, you would notice the change. You would comment on it to the person who is with them day in and day out, and the most likely response you would get is "Oh, really. I didn't notice."

Yeah, entropy is perhaps a badly chosen word, I debated if I should use it or not, and decided to run with it. rcb30872 explains very well the point that Tolle was making (at least my understanding of it), that solid objects by their nature are constantly degrading (on one hand) and that is allowing new forms to be created (on the other). The underlying principle being formless and eternal, but not applicable to the 2 of Disks, as its not from the world of form.

Entropy perhaps over emphasises one side of that equation. I didn't intend to imply the 2 of Disks represented disintegration, but rather that change was a constant in the world of form, as it is really less "solid" than we perceive it. The recording I was referencing was part of a conversation on death, so disintegration was the emphasised principle, though not the point of the conversation.

Perhaps a better way to put it, is that my understanding of the 2 of Disks represents a more natural/progressive change, that is a balance of destruction and creation (or as Aeon418 has said constriction and expansion). This is what I meant by the 2 of Disks being more like Death, than the Tower. The Tower to me shows only the destruction, and the following creation is implied only because nothing else can be done. Death however shows active creation as part of the card.

I am not sure if this can be correlated to the 2 of Disks or not, but I was pondering this earlier on.

Say, for example, you are playing a game of pool, billiards or snooker. You hit the white ball, that is if you are playing properly , the white ball will move at a speed, distance and direction in relataion to how hard and where you hit the white ball. Then the white ball travels and hit another ball, that ball then moves at a speed, distance and direction in how hard and where the white hits the ball. That could possibly hit another ball, depending on how close any other ball is to the ball that the white ball has hit, and how many balls are actually on the table, thus affecting the probability. This is in effect what they call "cause and affect." I figured it would be easier to put it in that terms, instead of coming up with another example that would be more complicated and personal.

What do you think? Could it correlate to the 2 of Disks?

similia said:

Entropy perhaps over emphasises one side of that equation.

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That was my feeling too. Entropy, in it's simplest sense, describes loss of energy due to decay or degeneration. But that ignores the other half of the serpent.

I was going to ramble on about 0=2, but I thought better of it and deleted it. My basic point was that you can't gain or lose anything because the balance of the equation is always Zero. Unwind the snake (8) and the pairs of opposites vanish into Nothing (0) which is everything.

similia said:

This is what I meant by the 2 of Disks being more like Death, than the Tower. The Tower to me shows only the destruction, and the following creation is implied only because nothing else can be done. Death however shows active creation as part of the card.

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I'm not so sure. I think both cards apply, but in slightly different ways. There are some aspects of the Tower that fit in perfectly. The doctrine of the Dove and the Serpent, the will to live and the will to die and the realisation that they are merely two different phases of one energy.

26. I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy. If I lift up my head, I and my Nuit are one. If I droop down mine head, and shoot forth venom, then is rapture of the earth, and I and the earth are one.

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The Tower is Peh = 80, which is Yesod (YSVD) the Foundation of the universe. Crowley's alternate title for the the Tower is WAR. Transliterate those letters into their Hebrew equivalents and you get VAR = 207.
207 = AVR - Light, and also AIN SVPh - Infinity.

rcb30872 said:

What do you think? Could it correlate to the 2 of Disks?

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Yes. It also points to the reason why Crowley wanted the card called Adjustment to be number 8 like the snake. Universal balance - karma - cause and effect.

Aeon418 said:

My basic point was that you can't gain or lose anything because the balance of the equation is always Zero. Unwind the snake (8) and the pairs of opposites vanish into Nothing (0) which is everything.

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you can't gain or lose anything ? Makes the path of the initiate seem a little pointless then (and everything else?). I thought one of Crowley's main ideas (in initiation and demonstrated in other areas - eg. 'The Naples Arrangement') is that you end where you began yet you have gained something by the experience -of the circuit or the addition followed by the subtraction?

Don't we learn something as we go along, through the changes? Is not 'something' (although perhaps undefined) gained by experience?

1. Is the Wheel Representative of Cyclic Changes - the seasons, the months...etc regular changes outside of ones control which when align with the physical, mental and spiritual bodies is always positive. Like bringing forth fruit.

2. Death another Cyclic change but unique as something that happens once in a life time and irreversible. These changes forever impacts the path of the cycle.

3. Two of pentacles, constant changes that my or may not have any other impact or even a lasing impact, change that can change the focus, provide fun or break the monotony. Change in status financial, but not like a down fall or bankruptcy, but enough to wake one up, and change the momentum, change in "non serious" relationships, like juggling a couple of boyfriends or partners, none of whom really touch our hearts, changes in thought, mulling over different ideas or even different realities. This I never see as permanent change, everything is up in the air and its more of balancing act than change, balancing different aspects of given situation. So- change in focus or change in priorities.

I think it is only our observation that sees stability. All matter is a flux between the positive and negative charge, this 2 of discs 'change' is the natural state of matter.

With the two's they represent that part of the element where we get the first glimerings of perception, only being able to 'understand' in duality.

ravenest said:

this 2 of discs 'change' is the natural state of matter.

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I really like that. So maybe in this card we become more aware of our natural state. Sort of like becoming aware of all that we are juggling- and that simple acknowledgment is enough of a pause to create "instability". Sort of like "I am this" until I stop to think about "what I am" at the point of recognition we become unstable, because we might choose something else. Or being in the middle of a fight, and suddenly becoming aware of your anger and at that point finding humor in the look on your opponents face. (the anger then becomes unstable). I can see this as a point of beginning to define something - the essence of something, leading to a completion in the 3's once its stable, but yet reflecting back on the other twos in the deck as a beginning state of defining- the end is not yet know...that is reflected in the High Priestess another 2.
I believe someone said- "Change in support of stability"- and that is why this thread caught my eye. I like "change in support of stability" --also those words will stick with me, when ever I see the two of pentacles.