Help! My Thoth deck dislikes me!

Jupiter Caelus

You are absolutely right! I couldn't have worded it better, "trying to escape the New Age veneer". I thought I was ready. To finally go over to Thoth. Obviously that is not to say I have achieved total mastery over the RWS, but still I thought I was in a place where I could finally begin my Thoth journey. How does one cross over from the "dread" stage to "learn and accept" stage?

Compared to most of the people here, I'm a "noob" in Tarot. Best let them truly answer that one.

For me, It's only nearing my one year anniversary with the Thoth and it's only in the last month or so that I've been making good progress; probably because I've had the time to really study it. The dread stage, I found, correlated perfectly with my lack of understanding of almost everything that would be considered prerequisite knowledge. In that sense, the RW screwed me over because its main demographic uses it for what seems like aesthetic purposes in their own little fairyland.
The remedy to it was reversing that lack of understanding - I got my hands on all the recommended texts and started on my own knowledge of the basics.

By the way, in my post above I wrote "9 of Wands". I meant Swords. Don't know how I did that. :p
 

Jagdamba

So I ask for your help. How did you bond with yours? :)

The first night I had the Thoth deck at my bedside I had a dream... where a tiger came out of the forest on the hillside and circled round me slowly me appraising me. I just took the decision to stay still and allow it.

I am a total beginner with the Thoth deck but for me I find: It engenders respect, is consistently full disclosure honest, undoubtedly serious but with a delightfully anarchic and humourous edge.

I am hopelessly uneducated in the basic foundations of knowledge for getting to grips with this complex and iconic deck but I know that I am going to study tarot seriously because of the Thoth tarot.

...I dare say I'd just ramble on in my usual New Age-lite way (I cant even say that I'm fully immersed in that!) otherwise.

Anyhow, just to say that I've read this thread so far with interest and good luck on your Thoth quest :)
 

Aeon418

Victory! Make an effort!

Oh. Quite convoluted, this one. Correct me if I am wrong but how are 7's the card of Victory? in wands it represents valour/defiance, in cups it shows delusions/debauch, in swords it shows futility/deception/theft and in case of pentacles failure/perseverance. In case of Chariot, power struggles and a hard won victory perhaps.. It all seems so confusing.
I will try my best not to heap confusion upon confusion, so I apologise if this loses you. But it might begin to show you some of the hidden depth of the Thoth Tarot.

The Thoth Tarot is based on the structure of the Qabalah. (Don't panic! :laugh:)
In that system the 7's correspond to the sphere of Netzach, which is Hebrew for Victory. This sphere corresponds to the planet, Venus, and the element of Fire.

In this context Venus is Nature and is related to the occult maxim:
Nature unaided always fails.
At it's simplest this means that without some sort of action the 7's all stay as they are.

But aren't all these cards supposed to be related to Fire? Surely that's energizing and full of action! This leads to another occult maxim.
Igne Natura Renovatur Integra.
This Latin phrase basically means, "All of Nature is Renewed by Fire". This points to the fact that all the 7's can be transformed into Victory through the regenerating power of Fire. To see the results just compare the 7's to the 6's.

7 of Disks - Failure, transformed into, 6 of Disks - Success.

7 of Swords - Futility, transformed into, 6 of Swords - Science.

7 of Cups - Debauch, transformed into, 6 of Cups - Pleasure.

7 of Wands - Valour, transformed into, 6 of Wands - Victory.

I will leave you to figure out for yourself how regenerating Fire transforms each of the 7's into 6's.
But the the long and short of it is that the 7's aren't as bad as they seem. But only if you're prepared to focus, stoke your fire, raise some energy, put in some effort, or take some action can these cards be transformed into Victory.
 

Girl Archer

The first night I had the Thoth deck at my bedside I had a dream... where a tiger came out of the forest on the hillside and circled round me slowly me appraising me. I just took the decision to stay still and allow it.

Anyhow, just to say that I've read this thread so far with interest and good luck on your Thoth quest :)

Hi Jagdamba, that is such an incredible gesture from the Thoth. Curious...how did that dream end? I once dreamed of a Strength card featuring a large tiger and myself as the woman in the card. That is how I ended up with a copy of the Hezicos tarot :laugh:

The dread stage, I found, correlated perfectly with my lack of understanding of almost everything that would be considered prerequisite knowledge. In that sense, the RW screwed me over because its main demographic uses it for what seems like aesthetic purposes in their own little fairyland.
The remedy to it was reversing that lack of understanding - I got my hands on all the recommended texts and started on my own knowledge of the basics.

By the way, in my post above I wrote "9 of Wands". I meant Swords. Don't know how I did that. :p

Hello Jupiter, thank you for commenting. Speaking of all the recommended texts, could you please tell me what material you read? Or PM me the names/links? :)

I will try my best not to heap confusion upon confusion, so I apologise if this loses you. But it might begin to show you some of the hidden depth of the Thoth Tarot.

The Thoth Tarot is based on the structure of the Qabalah. (Don't panic! :laugh:)
In that system the 7's correspond to the sphere of Netzach, which is Hebrew for Victory. This sphere corresponds to the planet, Venus, and the element of Fire.

In this context Venus is Nature and is related to the occult maxim:

At it's simplest this means that without some sort of action the 7's all stay as they are.

But aren't all these cards supposed to be related to Fire? Surely that's energizing and full of action! This leads to another occult maxim.

This Latin phrase basically means, "All of Nature is Renewed by Fire". This points to the fact that all the 7's can be transformed into Victory through the regenerating power of Fire. To see the results just compare the 7's to the 6's.

7 of Disks - Failure, transformed into, 6 of Disks - Success.

7 of Swords - Futility, transformed into, 6 of Swords - Science.

7 of Cups - Debauch, transformed into, 6 of Cups - Pleasure.

7 of Wands - Valour, transformed into, 6 of Wands - Victory.

I will leave you to figure out for yourself how regenerating Fire transforms each of the 7's into 6's.
But the the long and short of it is that the 7's aren't as bad as they seem. But only if you're prepared to focus, stoke your fire, raise some energy, put in some effort, or take some action can these cards be transformed into Victory.

They did not confuse me at all. For the most part. However, so in the Thoth deck, the cards sequence goes backwards? Cuz thought tens meant the completion a journey, in the RWS for example.

Thank you for explaining that so well :) that was very enlightening.
 

Zephyros

The best introductory text is Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot by Lon Milo DuQuette. It gives you everything you need to get started. Where you want to go from there is up to you, but it really does give a well-rounded introduction.
 

Owl Tarot

They did not confuse me at all. For the most part. However, so in the Thoth deck, the cards sequence goes backwards? Cuz thought tens meant the completion a journey, in the RWS for example.

I might have a way to aid you understand the idea: The motion of the sequence goes both ways. A way of putting it is, the purpose of the Aces is to eventually achieve the condition depicted by the following Minors. The purpose of the lower Minors, when the final stage is accomplished, is to "transform" themselves to the more purified condition of each Trump preceding them. The basis is explained by the Hermetic axiom "As above, so below". What is above aims downwards, and what is below aims upwards in an endless state of balanced motion. That's a way for me to understand it, at the least.
 

Zephyros

I might have a way to aid you understand the idea: The motion of the sequence goes both ways. A way of putting it is, the purpose of the Aces is to eventually achieve the condition depicted by the following Minors. The purpose of the lower Minors, when the final stage is accomplished, is to "transform" themselves to the more purified condition of each Trump preceding them. The basis is explained by the Hermetic axiom "As above, so below". What is above aims downwards, and what is below aims upwards in an endless state of balanced motion. That's a way for me to understand it, at the least.

True, but as the Scarecrow said, some people go both ways. :)

The cards can be seen as a map toward initiation, but they also depict the development of Creation from the abstract idea to its final fruition. The Aces portray the element in its seed form, and as they progress idea unfolds. The further you get from the Ace, the more polluted the element gets, the less driving force there is and the more the element becomes like the next one.

For example, the Ace of Swords is the pure thought, unpolluted by anything. It is concentrated, direct and focused. The Ten, on the other hand, is all scattered madness, the mind cannot even muster enough strength to form a coherent thought, and so by necessity must "tumble down" to the formulation of the material Ace of Discs.
 

Always Wondering

Girl Archer said:
Obviously that is not to say I have achieved total mastery over the RWS, but still I thought I was in a place where I could finally begin my Thoth journey. How does one cross over from the "dread" stage to "learn and accept" stage?

Have a look at ATU XVIII The Moon. You got yourself to the beginning of that path that will take you between and past the pillars. The only way to get past the dread stage is to step on through and start learning and accepting. It helps me to know that there are other places (cards) along the path. The Sun for instance, or my favorite, the Empress. A Girl Archer might focus on ART when the path feels dark. ;)

I literally have to take one of these brighter cards out of the deck and display it like a candle when the path turns dark. Or look above me to the host of stars overhead, to understand that I am not the only one walking the shadowy parts of the path.

But I would have a few good books nearby also. I recommend DuQuette as well.


AW
 

Zephyros

... or gaze at the Star and feel the loving embrace of Nuit. Or to meditate on Adjustment and feel the comfort of knowing that the universe is working exactly right.
 

Barleywine

They did not confuse me at all. For the most part. However, so in the Thoth deck, the cards sequence goes backwards? Cuz thought tens meant the completion a journey, in the RWS for example.

No, the card sequence goes both ways. Coming down the Tree of Life (the "Path of the Flaming Sword"), the cards go in normal sephirotic order, Ace through 10. Spirit descending the Tree becomes increasingly involved in physical manifestation until in Malkuth (the 10's) it is completely immersed. Going back up the Tree to regain its original state of purity (the Way of Return) the idea is to gradually shed the gross vehicle of matter and become increasingly sublimated. It seems to me that fiery Netzach burns away the non-essential dross of the Sevens so they are worthy to reclaim the more exalted (going up the Tree, that is) "Six-ness" (harmony, balance) of Tiphareth. This reverses the normal accumulating and aggregating power of the Venus influence (in astrological terms, think more the discriminating Libra side than the acquisitive Taurus side). Of course, it's been many years since I actively studied this stuff, so my recollection could be faulty.