Just Curious...

rodney, I started a new thread in the Thoth forum and linked back to here.

Moderator Note

Yes, this is the RWS forum.

If anyone wants to have a discussion on the TdM, please start a new thread for that over in the Historical section and link to that here.

If you wish to discuss ways to lay out the Major Arcana (which isn't RWS-specific), then have that discussion in Using Tarot Cards (where there is such a thread already because I started it many years ago).

If you wish to discuss the Thoth in a manner that doesn't relate it to the RWS then please do that in the Thoth forum and link back to it here.

The Golden Dawn's change in the ordering of the Majors as reflected in the RWS is an appropriate topic both for this forum and for this thread. Other Golden Dawn discussions should occur in that forum.

closrapexa said:

Not exactly. The Golden Dawn changed the ordering to better reflect the order of the zodiac so that you would have first the planets based on their speed of movement and distance from the sun:

Fool: Air
Magician: Mercury (closest planet to the Sun)
Priestess: Moon (next "planet" as far as the classical astrologers were concerned)
Empress: Venus (next planet out)

Click to expand...

I can't follow your logic here. You are switching from a heliocentric to a geocentric perspective, and back... If we pursue this further down the Major Arcana, the next planets would be Jupiter, Mars, Saturn. The whole scheme is obviously not based on the planets' speed of movement or distance from the Sun, although I see a recurring pattern of "second planet, first planet, third planet."

The thing is that the correlation of the Trumps in numerical order with the Hebrew alphabet and corresponding zodiacal signs and elements according to the Sepher Yetzirah leads to a scheme that looks meaningful. However, the attribution of letters to planets diverges in different versions of that text. That part is quite ambiguous and has to be 'back engineered.'

Now begin the zodaical Trumps beginning with:

Emperor:Aries
Hierophant:Taurus
Lovers: Gemini
Chariot: Cancer
Strength: Leo
Hermit: Virgo
Justice: Libra

etc.

These attributions make sense, since they follow natural progression.

Click to expand...

Yes, these attributions look interesting - although, as an astrologer, I would say that several of them need to be taken with a grain of salt.

What Crowley did may seem, on the surface, as going back to the original order but what he did was so drastic and "out there" it can't be considered as such. Here, in order to understand that you really have to know your stuff, because it really is confusing. Here is a short, graphic explanation that serves mainly to demonstrate what niether I, nor you, will ever fully understand

http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleonZodiacBelt.html

It has to do with the reception of the Book of Law and certain instructions contained therein. For the Thoth it works... after a fashion, although some would say it causes more problems than it solves.

I suppose esoteric significance can be found, but they aren't intrinsic. Many aspects of the TdM were discarded by both the GD and Crowley, and symbols were used differently.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Imo, Crowley DID return to the original order. Period.

As for the TdM having no esoteric significance, that's simply not true.

Click to expand...

Agreed. May I refer the interested reader to another post of mine:

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=226559&page=8

Even if we disregard everything else, the Trumps clearly show some kind of at least astrological ordering that was put in place originally, even if the deck was not finalized until long after its origins. Cards like Justice with its scales or Strength with its lion or the Empress with its Venusian figure all point to some astrological connection. But it would have been natural for the creators of the deck to include these figures at the time.

Click to expand...

Food for thought.

Amanda said:

They follow natural progression, but why the planets first? I mean, there are several times I have thought the Magician could be Aries (with none of the knowledge to back anything up mind you, just my feelings on the card).

Click to expand...

Well, I don't really know, but the Trumps tell only half the story. The other half lies in the attributions of the Tree of Life. Once you have that, things become somewhat clearer (although not by much).

Amanda said:

It seems like he's making reference to the Lovers and the Tower, and then says something about his prophet revealing the secret to the wise. What do you think that means?

Click to expand...

Now even I can agree that's off-topic, come to the Thoth forum for a full explanation of the double loop.

Amanda said:

So, can I ask you something? Are you as familiar with TdM and Waite as you are the Thoth? What draws you strongly to the Thoth over the others? And how do you personally feel about the placement of Strength/Justice?

Click to expand...

Ditto.

Michael Sternbach said:

I can't follow your logic here. You are switching from a heliocentric to a geocentric perspective, and back... If we pursue this further down the Major Arcana, the next planets would be Jupiter, Mars, Saturn. The whole scheme is obviously not based on the planets' speed of movement or distance from the Sun, although I see is a recurring pattern of "second planet, first planet, third planet."

Click to expand...

Strictly speaking, it isn't my logic, and there are other factors at work, see the above illustration of the Tree. That isn't actually the Tree the GD would have used, as originally Chochma was attributed to the Zodiac, as that which lies outside the shell of the universe at Binah. Plus it's from Thelemapedia, so there's the Star/Emperor thing going on there. But it does give an idea. How it was all arrived at I'm not completely sure (I never actually studied the "why," only the "what."). But as I said, it is clear that there are other factors as work, some going according to a system, others ideological or symbolic. Study of the Tree reveals a certain "music" that ultimately makes sense, at least in my experience.

Michael Sternbach said:

The thing is that che correlation of the Trumps in numerical order with the Hebrew alphabet and corresponding zodiacal signs and elements according to the Sepher Yetzirah leads to a scheme that looks meaningful. However, the attribution of letters to planets diverges in different versions of that text. That part is quite ambiguous and has to be 'back engineered.'

Click to expand...

I agree. The GD had its own agenda. Like I said, there is a certain symmetry that makes sense, even though it may not make perfect astrological sense.

Michael Sternbach said:

I beg to differ. Imo, Crowley DID return to the original order. Period.

Click to expand...

I didn't say he didn't. Whether he did or did not, he did it because of reasons so different that it can be thought of as a step forward, not back. Even with Strength/Justice back at their original places it's still a different animal altogether. Besides, the TdM had no Hebrew letters, so comparison is moot, but with the things he did with the Star/Emperor, what do you base your opinion on?

Now, the attributions for the RWS can be glimpsed in the BOTA, which used the original GD attributions. But the RWS's attributions are open for debate, although the deck itself gives many many clues as to the influences Waite used.

Michael Sternbach said:

.....I beg to differ. Imo, Crowley DID return to the original order. Period.....

Click to expand...

Yes, the cardinal numbering of the Thoth is the same as that of the TdM and other historical decks. More important, however, is the ordinal numbering provided by the Hebrew letter correlations, which determines the ToL positions as well as the astrological and elemental attributions.. Note that this ordering is identical to that of the RWS except that Emperor and Star have been interchanged.

LRichard said:

Yes, the cardinal numbering of the Thoth is the same as that of the TdM and other historical decks. More important, however, is the ordinal numbering provided by the Hebrew letter correlations, which determines the ToL positions as well as the astrological and elemental attributions.. Note that this ordering is identical to that of the RWS except that Emperor and Star have been interchanged.

Click to expand...

Of course, we can't be sure if/how the TdM and other early decks are correlated with the Hebrew alphabet. For the time being, I'm open to all theories.

Michael Sternbach said:

Of course, we can't be sure if/how the TdM and other early decks are correlated with the Hebrew alphabet. For the time being, I'm open to all theories.

Click to expand...

I don't believe the Hebrew alphabet was generally associated with the TdM, except by Levi and his followers, who got it wrong, at least according to Waite, with whom I agree. P. F. Case suggests that Levi got it wrong on purpose, in order not to reveal the true correlation. (Levi starts with Aleph = Magician and puts Fool between Judgement and World, while the "correct" correlation starts with Aleph = Fool.)

LRichard said:

I don't believe the Hebrew alphabet was generally associated with the TdM, except by Levi and his followers, who got it wrong, at least according to Waite, with whom I agree. P. F. Case suggests that Levi got it wrong on purpose, in order not to reveal the true correlation. (Levi starts with Aleph = Magician and puts Fool between Judgement and World, while the "correct" correlation starts with Aleph = Fool.)

Click to expand...

Crowley also said that Levi knew the true correlation but published an incorrect one on purpose. I don't buy this. There are also good arguments for equating The Magician with Aleph such as his body posture in old decks. Not to mention the numerical value of Aleph being one. And so on.

Perhaps more than one view has validity to it.

closrapexa said:

Well, I don't really know, but the Trumps tell only half the story. The other half lies in the attributions of the Tree of Life. Once you have that, things become somewhat clearer (although not by much).

Click to expand...

Oh the places I am led.. (secretly thinking of how their just might not be enough space in my head)

Now even I can agree that's off-topic, come to the Thoth forum for a full explanation of the double loop.

Ditto.

Click to expand...

Into the lair of closrapexa, eh? Will I come out alive an unharmed? Dark places don't scare me, you know.

I'll be there soon with my questions. (On Mondays and Tuesdays you are less likely to see a peep from me around here, as I'm usually trying to finish up on procrastinated schoolwork that is due on Wednesdays )