Is it OK to use the Thoth deck w RW interpretations?

ScarlettQofW

One of the first readers I ever went to used the Thoth deck & I became used to the imagery. I'm not sure she read using Golden Dawn interpretations. As I became more and more interested in Tarot I bought a RW deck not even knowing the name of the Thoth deck i didn't even know how to find one. Further didn't know the deck almost has a way of reading of its own quite different than RW. But now that I know more about tarot I feel she was reading the cards with a combo of RW & the meanings written on the Thoth cards. Is it ok to use the deck and read them that way? Or will I not be deriving the true meaning of the reading...unless I follow Thoth / Golden Dawn rules...?
 

Zephyros

Oy vey, can'o'worms. I will say that I think it is better to give each deck the respect it deserves as two separate entities and works of applied art. Depending on what you want and how you read, it sounds like you're suggesting using the Thoth but mentally seeing the RWS. That sounds a bit of a waste of both decks.

But there is no Tarot police who will come in the dead of night and confiscate your decks, so it's your call, you reap what you sow, etc.
 

Grigori

When I first started reading with the Thoth deck (having been a RWS reader before that) I really struggled. I was looking to make them the same. It didn't work. It was only when I started approaching the Thoth as its own thing, then I started to get somewhere. 10 years later I find a lot of similarity between them and really enjoy studying their common Golden Dawn roots. On occasions even I'll pull a Thoth card from my deck and think of the RWS equivalent and based on that intuition read the RWS card instead. But for starting out, I'd suggest trying to approach them as separate entities is better for your understanding of what makes Thoth, Thoth.

Having said that, if you want to use the Thoth cards as placeholders for your remembered image of the RWS, then I guess you could do that :)
 

gregory

"OK" is not the issue. Sure, you can if you like. But I really wouldn't try it - if you are thinking RWS meanings, the imagery of the Thoth is lost on you; if you try to use the imagery on them overlaid with RWS, you will REALLY struggle.

And you will lose many of the subtleties of RWS reading if you aren't looking at the RWS images when you are reading. Something ACTUALLY THERE ON THE CARD can make all the difference to a reading. And if you think you know the cards so well that that won't be an issue - well, in the Identify this card game a couple of years ago, I posted a clip. When it was finally solved, one of the players said she hadn't recognised it AT ALL - she'd been using the deck (Gilded) daily, for years, and had never noticed there were sheep on it. Says it all. We see what we need to when we need it - and if you aren't looking at the cards whose meanings you are using, you will miss that added dimension.
 

Richard

I still don't know what the 'Rider-Waite meanings' are. Are they just the generic divinatory meanings given in Tarot books (which may use the RWS for illustration)? In that case, the expression 'RWS meanings' is just another genericism, like 'Kleenex' means facial tissue or 'Hoover' means vacuum cleaner. The RWS images don't always seem to go very well with the generic meanings, not even with those given in Part III of PKT.

Anyhow, it doesn't make any sense at all to use 'RWS meanings' with the Thoth. Why not just use RWS?

ETA. I do often use the Thoth meanings (from the BoT) in connection with my interpretation of the RWS, especially the minors, since the RWS and Thoth are based on the same decans.
 

gregory

I still don't know what the 'Rider-Waite meanings' are. Are they just the generic divinatory meanings given in Tarot books (which may use the RWS for illustration)?
In this case I'd assume basically those in PKT ? But either way, the ones in generic books are very different from anything you will see on a Thoth card.
 

Aeric

There's the intended meanings in the Book of Thoth and there's everything else. Don't forget that Crowley considered Waite's deck flawed and took it upon himself to "correct" the Tarot when producing the Thoth. In making RWS, Waite chose to veil much of the Golden Dawn symbolism, but Crowley wanted to lay it all bare.

But in addition to that, Crowley incorporated into many Thoth cards elements of his own religion Thelema, that Waite's ideology and the RWS deck lack. There's much about both Waite's book and popular Tarot meanings that are simply wrong when laid over Thoth cards, not because of inaccuracy over the same idea, but because of different religious symbols, themes, and ideas represented.

RWS presents a vision of Waite's opinions of the Tarot, but Thoth presents ideas about Crowley himself, as well as his opinions of Tarot. Thoth is a much more personal deck of its author than RWS is. If you try to use RWS meanings, it might present an incorrect reflection of Crowley as much as confusing readings.
 

smw

One of the first readers I ever went to used the Thoth deck & I became used to the imagery. I'm not sure she read using Golden Dawn interpretations. As I became more and more interested in Tarot I bought a RW deck not even knowing the name of the Thoth deck i didn't even know how to find one. Further didn't know the deck almost has a way of reading of its own quite different than RW. But now that I know more about tarot I feel she was reading the cards with a combo of RW & the meanings written on the Thoth cards. Is it ok to use the deck and read them that way? Or will I not be deriving the true meaning of the reading...unless I follow Thoth / Golden Dawn rules...?

I have recently bought a Thoth deck and although at first found some of the cards quite direct, when trying to progress further I am finding it confusing with looking at different interpretations of the cards. I have just realised from starting reading what seem to be huge differences between the background of the cards such as Christian Judgement day and Aeon... I wasn't intending to delve into all the background but can't really not.
 

Eremita90

Well, as the others have told you... yes, you can, but why? It's not that Crowley revolutionized the meanings of the cards, and if you compare Book T, Book of Thoth and the two decks (RWS and Thoth) you will notice that, despite some differences, what really tells them apart is the grounding philosophy. For example, the Ten of Cups. Crowley hated that card, not because it doesn't mean emotional completion anymore, but because completion is not a fantastic thing to begin with: to him "change is stability", and completion is fixed, static, ultimately just a way to be at odds with the ways of nature: the true completion in the water suit is perhaps the Six of Cups, Pleasure, because it's dynamic.
Thus what the GD still considered a card of perfect and unrivalled success just became "Satiety", a very neutral term, indicating a mechanistic way of filling yourself and then feeling empty, and so on, only because you have a weird idea of being emotionally fulfilled. You may well superimpose Waite's vision of this card on Crowley's card, as long as you are aware that for Crowley yes, it could mean finding a partner, having children and seeing weird metallic rainbows in the sky, but this is just a petty way of frustrating your nature.

All in all, I think it's easier to paste Crowley onto Waite than the other way around, although I just don't like to do it.
 

PathWalker

I have been inspired by this thread to take out (again!) my copy of Lon Milo Duquette's book on the Thoth, and have another bash at sufficiently understanding what Crowley wanted to say to be able to read Thoth with at least some grasp of what was intended.

I find it difficult, partly because they are not my beliefs, and I sometimes wonder whether I should let the Thoth (and it's clones) go from my collection. But then, if I think about it deeply enough, I realise that some of what Waite and Smith were encapsulating isn't my belief either, they just made it easier to read their deck perhaps, without realising where it ws coming from. So I'd either have to get rid of most of my collection as not aligning with my personal spiritual views, or keep and work with all of them for the variety of voices they offer me.

hence I'm back with Lon again :)