Exploring the Cary Sheet

Ross G Caldwell

le pendu said:
Good find Ross. This is a much closer match than anything I could find so far. The high dress, "pregnant" look, and hanging sleeves. So now we just have to date the Charles VI! No problem! hee hee

Isn't the headress on the central figure pretty specific in time?

best,
robert

I would *guess*, from my limited knowledge, that this high draped headdress went out before the end of the 1450s. But I know so little about fashion - there are some good books on it you've no doubt found - that it could have been around for a short time in Italy, and much longer in France.

Late 14th century depictions of Isabelle of Bavaria (Queen of Charles VI) and her ladies, up to Charles VII ladies (Charles died 1461) show that it lasted that long in France.

In Italy, the Francophile passion had limited and sporadic life.
 

le pendu

Ross G Caldwell said:
I suppose the dogs could have been added later, as an extra artistic bit to illustrate the Moon (but why two?).

I suspect that the Moon from the Cary Sheet is earlier, and that the dogs were added. It makes no sense to me either that the dogs were removed for the Cary Sheet if it is based on a TdM model. Much more likely the TdM is based on a model similar to the Cary Sheet and the dogs were added. I would suggest two dogs simply to retain a sense of symmetry.. one dog would have thrown things off.

Of note as well is that the Moon is full faced like the TdM I style of cards, as shown in Dodal and Noblet, rather than face in profile as shown on Conver, etc.

best,
 

Ross G Caldwell

le pendu said:
I suspect that the Moon from the Cary Sheet is earlier, and that the dogs were added. It makes no sense to me either that the dogs were removed for the Cary Sheet if it is based on a TdM model. Much more likely the TdM is based on a model similar to the Cary Sheet and the dogs were added. I would suggest two dogs simply to retain a sense of symmetry.. one dog would have thrown things off.

Of note as well is that the Moon is full faced like the TdM I style of cards, as shown in Dodal and Noblet, rather than face in profile as shown on Conver, etc.

Good points; yes, it's an early witness to a design that would engender the TdM I.

"Around 1500" isn't very satisfying, and as far as I can tell, this date is entirely conjectural, not based on external factors. Where the sheet comes from is unknown.

So we have lacunae in our chain of transmission:

(original design)>>>>Cary sheet>>>>(period of 150 years?)>>>>Noblet tarot

Not helpful.

I guess symmetry is a good explanation for why two dogs.
 

DoctorArcanus

Gothic Furniture

I like this thread: thank you all!!!
The Cary Sheet really deserves attention, and its state of being uncut and uncomplete only makes it more interesting :)

I think the furniture in the Lovers and Magician cards looks "gothic": the trefoil (or trilobe) pattern we see there was created in the context of French architecture, and became a common pattern in the international gothic style. I think such a detail is not likely in an Italian work of art of the XVI century. We can see quatrifoils on the thrones of the Visconti-Sforza kings, but the 1490s Sola-Busca does not present such decorations.
Trifoil windows still appear in the already mentioned Benozzo Gozzoli in the second half of the XV Century.

Of course, trilobes did not disappear immediately when they became out-fashioned during the XV Century, but I think that an artist would have chosen more modern furniture for his cards....unless he was copying from an older (French?) original ;)
I think these details point to a date before 1480.

The head-gear of the Pope/Papess is another detail that I think could provide more information. I don't think it is a "unicum", but I have not found another similar figure yet.

Marco
 

Ross G Caldwell

DoctorArcanus said:
Of course, trilobes did not disappear immediately when they became out-fashioned during the XV Century, but I think that an artist would have chosen more modern furniture for his cards....unless he was copying from an older (French?) original ;)
I think this detail points to a date before 1480.

I agree! It's an exhilarating prospect, to find it dated so early. Not because it is an early printed tarot, but because it is so early for a direct ancestor of the TdM.

Like you say, the artist could be copying from a French original. We might hypothesize that it was designed on the decks sent to Pinerolo in 1505.

But I think, like you, that such overt gothicism did not survive the 15th century in Italy (probably died with the Sforza dynasty - the last work on the Certosa is very gothic, and that was done by Ludovico in the 1490s). The accidental details - the high tie of the dresses, the tight hair, the wooden slippers - really seem to be old.

The head-gear of the Pope/Papess is another detail that I think could provide more information. I don't think it is a "unicum", but I have not found another similar figure yet.

Marco

Yes, I thought of that too. There is a mitre in a crown. Very strange.

Ross
 

DoctorArcanus

The coroneted mitre!!!

We have some stuff about our "Pope" :)
I think the mystery is even greater now: I am thrilled!

I knew that in Trento there was a dinasty of "Prince-Bishops", so I thought that crown+mitre could be connected to them.
I found out that this union of Catholic and temporal power was rather common, and Prince-Bishops or Duke-Bishops existed all over Europe.

On wikipedia there is this article about the Bishop of Durham.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:


The coroneted mitre (Figure 9), which has so often been used by archbishops under the belief that it appertained to archiepiscopal rank, is really and exclusively the mitre of the Bishop of Durham. The See of Durham, until early in the nineteenth century, was in fact and law also a temporal palatinate, and, though latterly its attributes of temporal sovereignty had declined, anciently the temporal power was of wide extent, the Bishops of Durham having their own separate parliament. In token of the temporal power the bishop had his coronet, in token of his spiritual power he had his mitre. Alone amongst the English bishops, his arms were surmounted by a helmet [they so appear in the famous "Armorial de Gelre" (Figure 10) where the helmet, with its mantling, is shown with the small shield tilted in the fashion of early heraldic displays], and on his helmet was placed his coronet. Within the coronet was his mitre and the representation of the two together led to the appearance of the coronet as the rim of the mitre, and coronet and mitre have been armorially depicted together. But no evidence of the wearing or actual existence of a coroneted mitre is known, and the present form is the heraldic conjunction of a coronet and a mitre. Whether since the abolition of the palatinate the right to the coronet still remains, is open to argument, but officially its use is still sanctioned.

It seems that the attributes of other Prince-Bishops (late XV Century sculpture) included a sword, but no crown....

Marco
 

Ross G Caldwell

DoctorArcanus said:
I found out that this union of Catholic and temporal power was rather common, and Prince-Bishops or Duke-Bishops existed all over Europe.
"The coroneted mitre (Figure 9), which has so often been used by archbishops under the belief that it appertained to archiepiscopal rank..."

Thanks for this Marco. So we know that the Cary sheet presumably intends to represent an Archbishop. Still no indication of the date, but I believe that the card replaces the Pope, while still indicating very high rank in the Church.

I think it is more likely that the Pope would be changed to an Archbishop, out of deference, than that there was originally an Archbishop in the trumps who was changed into a Pope.
 

le pendu

Damn, I want to see the Popess card! Wouldn't it be interesting if it showed a Pope.. and this deck had a Pope and Archbishop?

Would it have made any sense to change the Pope to an Archbishop during the 15th Century? Does that tell us anything?

best,
robert
 

Ross G Caldwell

le pendu said:
Damn, I want to see the Popess card! Wouldn't it be interesting if it showed a Pope.. and this deck had a Pope and Archbishop?

It would be interesting.

Would it have made any sense to change the Pope to an Archbishop during the 15th Century? Does that tell us anything?

best,
robert

I guess if the Pope was changed to an Archbishop, then it is less likely to have a Popess too. It might be an Abbess, or something else.

I guess it would be to remove offence to the Papacy, which was sometimes a bone of contention (Steele Sermon doesn't like it, some packs later made the figures into the Spanish Captain and Bacchus, or Jupiter and Juno; in Bologna after 1725, the Popes and Emperors had to be changed to Moors).

So if this tells us anything, it tells us that this is not the "original" design for the tarot pack, but a reaction to an earlier design.

Only if those premises are correct, of course.
 

le pendu

The Star
The Star on the Cary Sheet looks at first to be very similar to the TdM model, and in fact it is a close representation when all of the other known models of this card are considered.

But the details of the card show many differeneces. The orientation is reversed. The nude woman is kneeling on both knees, not just one. The area of ground on which she kneels is clearly definded.

She holds two large jugs, one resting on her shoulder, the other underneath her arm, from which she pours the water into the stream.

There is a large star above her surrounded by four stars. There also appears to be a star shown on her shoulder itself which should probably be considered a fifth star. I think it might be interesting to discover *why* that fifth star is there. It could easily have been removed or left off, considering what an awkward location it is in, but perhaps it was "necessary" to have either 5 stars, or a star in the "location" in relation to the other stars, or to show the figure with a star on her shoulder?

Here is the Star by Nicolas Conver for comparison:


conver_XVII.jpg