What makes Thoth Thoth?

I've (apparently) just acquired my first Thoth-based deck, the Vision Quest Tarot, courtesy of the lovely Mariana in a trade here at AT. Mariana warned me that I would have some learning to do as it was a Thoth and she saw from my profile that it would be my first. Well, I'm very happy with the trade and I'm much attracted to the deck, but I don't really understand what makes Thoth so different, except that it's the Kings (Fathers in the Vision Quest) that are shown on horseback rather than the Knights (Sons). OK, some of the keywords are slightly different from those in other decks I have - Doubt for the 3 of Swords (Feathers) and Excess for the 7 of Cups (Vessels) spring to mind. But my beloved Secret Forest, which as far as I know isn't Thoth-based, also has some idiosyncratic keywords, for example Lateral Thinking for the 7 of Cups and Melancholy for the 8 of Cups.

Can anyone alleviate my confusion, please??

The Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot is radically different from any other Tarot out there. A "Thoth-based" Tarot would be one that was fundamentally based on that deck. But from looking at the cards from the Vision Quest and reading the reviews here at Aeclectic, I'm not really sure I would call it "Thoth-based." It looks to me like it might incorporate aspects of the Thoth, like the Kings on horseback for example and some of the titles, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Thoth-based. I'll be curious to hear what others have to say.

Yeah, I can't really add anything either. I'm in the dark about it. I have the book but haven't cracked it open yet.

I've never been able to figure out what the hell anyone meant when they talked about a thoth deck either..... drives me crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzy

I don't have the Vision Quest, though have looked at it a few times and thought that it would be a good deck for me. I see it as quite Thoth inspired, though the images have a more "commercial" prettiness that would be useful with some clients. I think the same is reflected in the keywords you mentioned oak_woman. "Doubt" instead of "Sorrow", "Excess" instead of "Debauch". Very similar meanings really, but a bit friendlier, and gentler perhaps.

I don't think its really got anything in it that is unique to the Thoth tradition, but rather that it contains the Golden Dawn structure, and has taken a lot of inspiration from the Thoth's interpretation of that, particularly with the courts and minors. The Thelemic components that make the Thoth unique have been removed, and instead you have the Native American theme's.

I'd think this deck is a great introduction for people who have come from a RWS tradition, and are wanting to enter the Thoth or Golden Dawn systems. Its based on them closely enough for you to benefit from studying texts on the Thoth etc., or even could open an interest into the Qabalah in tarot etc. But at the same time, the Vision Quest could very easily and happily be read without any of that study. (The Qabalah will also explain why the Kings are on horseback).

If you want a book to read that will give you a grounding in those sorts of things, but that applies to the Vision Quest moreso than just the Thoth, I'd recommend Wang's "Qabalistic Tarot". It explains that system, and illustrates it using the Thoth, RWS and Marseille. So you could work along with your Vision Quest very easily, and draw on your knowledge of the RWS (although I think Wang messes up the switch of the horse a little bit in that book, but others would disagree with me). And if that appeals to you, then some Thoth works (I'd suggest Duquette's "Introduction to the Thoth" and a good basic astrology book) could be next.

Hmmm, I want that deck now. hehe

Okay, I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I'll weigh in with what I (think I) know . The courts in the Thoth are very different to the RWS ones, in that the Princess and Prince are the offspring of the Queen, while the Knight is a usurper of sorts, taking the place of the (absent) King, and (to paraphrase Alexandra Genetti in the Wheel of Change Tarot companion book) opens the Courts to become a circular, cyclic set of energies, rather than a rigid father, mother, son, daughter family dynamic. I'm certain that there is a much deeper significance there, but I don't know what is yet .

I've noticed significant differences between RWS and Thoth meanings for some cards, as well, notably the 6 of Cups (Pleasure) and the 9 of Wands (Power).

I have three Thoth-based decks, one of which is one of my favourite decks, but I have yet to really get my teeth into the structures of them.

\m/ Kat

I think I did not answer your actual question very well, which is "what makes the Thoth unique?". So trying again...

When discussing the structure of the/his tarot, Crowley says:

Crowley in the Book of Thoth said:

At first sight one would suppose this arrangement to be arbitrary, but it is not. It is necessitated, as will appear later, by the structure of the universe, and in particular of the Solar System, as symbolized by the Holy Qabalah.

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I'd say what makes it unique, is that the Thoth was designed by a highly intelligent mind, who at the time was in their old age (i.e. very wise, not dottering), having devoted their entire life to the study of occult subjects. The deck is intended to be a visual illustration of all they have learned about the universe in an entire lifetime of devoted study.

What other deck can you name, where the creator has that level of education behind them, and is aiming at so lofty a goal? I don't believe there is another one. Excluding theories about Atlantis of course

First off, we have to clarify nomenclature.


The term “Book of Thoth” (referring to the Tarot cards) was first used by de Mellett in his monograph published by de Géblin in his Monde Primitif in 1781.

Jean-Baptiste Alliette (Etteilla) marketed the first “Book of Thoth” deck in 1783.

The Crowley/Harris Thoth deck was published for distribution in 1969.

Aleister Crowley switched Strength and Justice back to where they were with the TdM, but left Le Mat as both zero and Aleph.

The term “Thoth Based” deck implies that it is different than the WCS ‘standard’ and minimizes work and studies done on the continent before and after 1909, assigning any work different to the WCS as having to do with Crowley only.

The term should be ‘Crowley-Harris Thoth”, to differentiate it from the Etteilla Thoth – which is different from the TdM, WCS and the CH Thoth.

Given that I agree with the previous two posts ... also in specifics:
"What makes Thoth Thoth?" (ie. Crowley / Harris Thoth)
The incorporation of Thelemic magical philosophy, it is very eclectic and combines a few interesting traditions through their magical correspondences and is pre-New Age.

oak_woman said:

Can anyone alleviate my confusion, please??

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Sorry, I find that when people (especially when new to Thoth deck) try to compare it with other decks ... or that is, try to understand it with the understanding gleaned from other decks - except for tarot basics - it often does lead to confusion, Let alone trying to understand Thoth from a perspective of another deck which is supposed to be THOTH LIKE ... and isn't (IMO) and does not have the Thelemic slant.

And also (again IMO) I think anyone that makes a "Thoth-type deck" hasnt come up with enough of their own insight, relevation, inspiration and are attempting to 'hitch their wagon to a star'.

Thank you everyone for your insights so far. Thorhammer, I had read something similar about the structure of the courts, and that's why I was puzzled that the imagery in the Vision Quest tarot still has them as Father, Mother, Son, Daughter in that order with the only apparent difference being the seating of the Fathers on horseback. Surely that's not enough to warrant studying the structure of those relationships based on Crowley's plan? I suppose the bottom line is: in an everyday reading situation, does Thothness/RWSness make a difference that's worth learning about to enhance the depth of the reading, do you think?