What makes Thoth Thoth?

fyreflye said:

Thanks for proving my point.

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Does the theory of gravity hinge upon the apocryphal story of an apple falling on Newton's head?

Likewise Crowley's account of the reception has no bearing on the philosophy of Thelema. It either works or it doesn't.

Lillie said:

Weirder things have happened though, haven't they?

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Oh yes. Some people believe that 78 pieces of cardstock can tell you your fortune.

Is the Ancient Egyptian thoth based?

So, c'mon guys, 'What makes Thoth Thoth?' And if Vision Quest can't be called Thoth-based but uses Thoth card names, do I still need to think differently about interpreting it than I would with my other decks? Thoughts, please!

oak_woman said:

So, c'mon guys, 'What makes Thoth Thoth?' And if Vision Quest can't be called Thoth-based but uses Thoth card names, do I still need to think differently about interpreting it than I would with my other decks? Thoughts, please!

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Apart from the excellent artwork, the Thoth's Thothiness (? ) is entirely due to it's incorporation of the philosophy of Thelema. Without that it would be just another deck.

The Vision Quest shares a similar structure to the Thoth, but this structure is not unique to the Thoth. It's a Golden Dawn based structure. As far as I'm concerned the Vision Quest is not Thoth based. It merely looks similar.

If your not interested in learning the Golden Dawn tarot framework feel free to interpret the deck any way you like. And rest assured that there is no Thoth in it.

Aeon418 said:

The Vision Quest shares a similar structure to the Thoth, but this structure is not unique to the Thoth. It's a Golden Dawn based structure. As far as I'm concerned the Vision Quest is not Thoth based. It merely looks similar.

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I already explained in post 13 what I had meant by telling oak_woman that the Vision Quest was Thoth-based. I also said that I agreed with you in that the Vision Quest's minors have a structure that's inspired by the Thoth's minors, but that the Vision Quest doesn't follow the Thoth philosophies. I find it a bit rude that you just discard my explanation like that and make fun of it. I agree with you that the Vision Quest couldn't be considered a serious deck of the Thoth tradition, but that has never been the question here. I think oak_woman's question was about the difference between RWS minors and Thoth-like minors.

Mariana said:

I find it a bit rude that you just discard my explanation like that and make fun of it. I agree with you that the Vision Quest couldn't be considered a serious deck of the Thoth tradition, but that has never been the question here. I think oak_woman's question was about the difference between RWS minors and Thoth-like minors.

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Huh??? Where did I make fun of it?

What I have tried to say is that the Thoth's minors and Court cards are not unique to the Thoth. They are merely one particular interpretation of the descriptions in the Golden Dawn Book T. The Vision Quest shares the same Golden Dawn structure. Apart from that and a few superficial artistic elements I see no link between the Thoth and the Vision Quest.

The Golden Dawn Tarot shares the exact same structure as the Thoth. But the Golden Dawn deck is most certainly not a Thoth clone.

AJ said:

Is the Ancient Egyptian thoth based?

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It looks RWS to me. I guess that makes it a second cousin's uncle's lawnmower's barber's sister to the Thoth

AJ said:

Is the Ancient Egyptian thoth based?

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Depends...

Since the Clive Barrett Ancient Egyptian has Strength as VIII and Justice as XI, then it is WCS based.

However the Japanese Majors Only no artist Ancient Egyptian has Justice as VIII and Strength (Fortitude) as XI, one could state that it was 'CH Thoth based'.

Thoth based is a really poor term. It depends on who is asked the question, as to the answer you get. Here on this forum, folks will agree, Thoth based = Crowley.

And yes, Aeon418 is correct, one must look at the treatment of the Majors also, in addition to the numeration. So it's a multi-stepped process. How is the deck numbered? Does the treatment (naming, and assigning meaning) of the majors mirror WCS or AC's The Book of Thoth?

Thanks (yes the CB one)
If I can remember who told me that I'll pin 'em down and make 'em explain what they meant. I've been hesitant to use it because I figured I needed to get some Thoth study under my belt first...

that's what I get for letting someone else do my thinking for me, but in the meantime I'll continue on showing my ignorance...

So another question for Umbrae, is Strength and Justice positions your basic guide for the difference 'tween Thoth and RWC's?