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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I find the 'Enochian Trance' different from 'scrying' , normal conscious and hypnotism ( which one should forget , unless one has a problem such an addiction or bad emotional state that cant be beaten, and then only with a very reliable person ) .

Then again it may have been the way we did it, which was a variation. I found the 'babbel' (the Enochian calls themselves) very effective to induce this, combined with the strong visual images of the 'squares' ( I have not worked with the aethyrs much ) . Then again, then again, it could have been due to my direct connection with the tools used (I spent 90 hours painting those squares. )
I would think so too. My little book for Scrying was written by the person who edited the Agrippa books, and it is an excellent book for the topic, I recall. It was mainly about scrying with crystal ball, and he was telling in detail how he stared the practice very early age, and also recommended diets when scrying, and various ways and tips for scrying .. Etc.

One could ask what has scrying with crystal ball has anything to do with tarot reading, and some may reply, well tarot readings are, they believe, scrying with tarot cards, and I think they might be right.

Enochian Magick is, I believe, different thing all together, I might be wrong, but I used to think it is magickal practices to see, and converse with the Enochian Angels and Demons, as Crowley had done in his "Vision and Voice" book.

This Magick, I reckon, would need maybe elevated state of consciousness via self hypnosis as smw tried, or other techniques? Or maybe if one is well trained and spiritual, then maybe is possible with normal consciousness.

For instance, from skimming the book by duQuette on the topic, he seems doing the Enochian Magick under the state of normal consciousness. I will be reading it soon, and was going to find out more about it.
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I

For instance, from skimming the book by duQuette on the topic, he seems doing the Enochian Magick under the state of normal consciousness. I will be reading it soon, and was going to find out more about it.
me too, I think it is very interesting what might be considered within 'normal consciousness' or what isn't. I suspect that the mind dips into different phases without us necessarily being aware of it. Maybe that is why journaling is helpful to train catching those fleeting thoughts that otherwise can remain out of awareness. With my dream image of the fire man, I would not have remembered that at all - I only did because I was recalling things for my journal and thought 'hang on- what was that? similarly when doing the LBRP. It's weird what you might get a glimpse of and forget if you don't make a concerted effort to recall it.

I was thinking of getting Duquette's book too. Does it cover scrying the Aethyrs? I have just impulse bought Enochian Magic in Theory by Frater Yechidah. It had some really good reviews on Amazon. I hope so. Last time on impulse I bought AC's Magick in Theory and Practice without really checking and it turned out to be some kind of internet publishing and in really hideous small print.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Enoch.../dp/1908705035

Apparently there is a follow up, Enochian Magic in Practice by Frater Yechidah which came out in hardback this January but is sold out. That has a chapter on scrying the Aethyrs.
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I find the 'Enochian Trance' different from 'scrying' , normal conscious and hypnotism ( which one should forget , unless one has a problem such an addiction or bad emotional state that cant be beaten, and then only with a very reliable person ).
I am wondering if hypnotism sometimes gets a bad reputation from those shows where they supposedly get someone in the audience to cluck like a chicken or something. I can't see that someone would do that against their will, if they didn't really want to. Although thinking about it, in an everyday sense if there is only one large piece of chocolate cake left the secret impulse might be to grab it...mine... all mine... which is held back by social conditioning. If inhibitions are down and relaxed then maybe you might just do it. on one hand you don't want to, on the other you do

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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Then again it may have been the way we did it, which was a variation. I found the 'babbel' (the Enochian calls themselves) very effective to induce this, combined with the strong visual images of the 'squares'
There seems to be some historical controversy about working with Enochian Magic. According to wiki Paul Foster Case was opposed to it's use and incorporation into the Golden Dawn by MacGregor Mathers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WIKI
In the "Wheel of Life" magazine, in March 1937, Case described B.O.T.A.'s relationship to the Golden Dawn, and his beliefs about the Golden Dawn's use of Enochian material.

"B.O.T.A. is a direct off-shoot of the Golden Dawn, but its work has been purged of all the dangerous and dubious magic incorporated into the Golden Dawn's curriculum by the late S.L. MacGregor Mathers, who was responsible for the inclusion of the ceremonials based on the skrying of Sir Edward Kelly.

"There is much in these Golden Dawn rituals and ceremonies that is of the greatest value; but from the first grade to the last it is all vitiated by these dangerous elements taken from Dee and Kelly. Furthermore, in many places, the practical working is not provided with adequate safeguards, so that, to the present writer's personal knowledge, an operator working with the Golden Dawn [Enochian] rituals runs very grave risks of breaking down his physical organism, or of obsession by evil entities."[27]
I have just been reading something about the calls, it might have been on one of the book reviews I was looking at. That mentioned that they can be quite powerful and caution needs to be exercised. Maybe scrying the Aethyrs is a less direct route to exploring, while using Crowley's visions rather than than going headlong in yourself. This could be a possible buffer, for beginners. The other thing that maybe is helpful with this is not getting too internalised with your own stuff as maybe the attempt helps widen your consciousness to take in an 'other's viewpoint. Possibly an empathy stretch... still thinking about it.

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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
( I have not worked with the aethyrs much ) . Then again, then again, it could have been due to my direct connection with the tools used (I spent 90 hours painting those squares. )
this reminds me of a carpenter or artist really loving the medium they are using and connecting with it to realise what they are creating.
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
me too, I think it is very interesting what might be considered within 'normal consciousness' or what isn't. I suspect that the mind dips into different phases without us necessarily being aware of it. Maybe that is why journaling is helpful to train catching those fleeting thoughts that otherwise can remain out of awareness. With my dream image of the fire man, I would not have remembered that at all - I only did because I was recalling things for my journal and thought 'hang on- what was that? similarly when doing the LBRP. It's weird what you might get a glimpse of and forget if you don't make a concerted effort to recall it.

I was thinking of getting Duquette's book too. Does it cover scrying the Aethyrs? I have just impulse bought Enochian Magic in Theory by Frater Yechidah. It had some really good reviews on Amazon. I hope so. Last time on impulse I bought AC's Magick in Theory and Practice without really checking and it turned out to be some kind of internet publishing and in really hideous small print.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Enoch.../dp/1908705035

Apparently there is a follow up, Enochian Magic in Practice by Frater Yechidah which came out in hardback this January but is sold out. That has a chapter on scrying the Aethyrs.
The book you mentioned seem very interesting and certainly seem getting great reviews.

From my little occult book collection, LMD's book Enochian Vision Maigick writes about the GD and Crowley definition of scrying.

"Scrying is, quite simply, the ability to put oneself in touch with one's own psychic senses. In Magickal operations the scrying session is usually preceded by a formal ceremony designed to put the magician in an alerted state of consciousness. It is, for all intents and purposes, a shamanic experience. The thoughts, mental images, and impressions that flood the magicians's mind during this altered state are subsequently recorded in the magician's journal and analyzed." -pp.15

The book discusses the 30 aethyrs, and also maps them into TOL. This is an excellent book for the topic.

I also have a book titled "Enochian World of Aleister Crowley" subtitled Enochian Sex Magic, by LMD and C. Hyatt. as accompanying book for the EVM.
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
The book you mentioned seem very interesting and certainly seem getting great reviews.

From my little occult book collection, LMD's book Enochian Vision Maigick writes about the GD and Crowley definition of scrying.

"Scrying is, quite simply, the ability to put oneself in touch with one's own psychic senses. In Magickal operations the scrying session is usually preceded by a formal ceremony designed to put the magician in an alerted state of consciousness. It is, for all intents and purposes, a shamanic experience. The thoughts, mental images, and impressions that flood the magicians's mind during this altered state are subsequently recorded in the magician's journal and analyzed." -pp.15

The book discusses the 30 aethyrs, and also maps them into TOL. This is an excellent book for the topic.

I also have a book titled "Enochian World of Aleister Crowley" subtitled Enochian Sex Magic, by LMD and C. Hyatt. as accompanying book for the EVM.
Ah thanks! That quote on an altered (alerted) state of mind before scrying sounds interesting and the Mapping on the tree.

I was thinking about the Enochian world too - that was on my possible list, along with Eshelman's visions and Voice - though that is unfortunately nearly 50
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
Ah thanks! That quote on an altered (alerted) state of mind before scrying sounds interesting and the Mapping on the tree.

I was thinking about the Enochian world too - that was on my possible list, along with Eshelman's visions and Voice - though that is unfortunately nearly 50
You are welcome smw. The book Enochian Vision Magick is saying that the chantings in Enochian language prior to the session is to make the magician into trance. I didn't know it before, and not sure how it would work in detail.

The Vision and The Voice book by Eshelman seem a great source to add into any serious students of Magick or Magicians library, but as you say it's price seem rather high for a book. I wonder if it is due to the fact that they only print in small quantity.
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
me too, I think it is very interesting what might be considered within 'normal consciousness' or what isn't. I suspect that the mind dips into different phases without us necessarily being aware of it.
Indeed. When working with such conditions one begins to respect that . What I mean is, when our group was underway (usually at a meeting, gathering or retreat, and 90% of the time at my place ) we would get 'used to ' such 'phases' ; leave a certain person alone, or ignore their absence after observing they were 'off with the fairies' . During retreats, when some are involved with multiple daily practices ( eg, even just Liber Resh X 4+ LBR daily ) its common to be 'in the zone' most of the time.

It can occur in a specific area to ... like when one entered the temple or circle. I notice that even others, entering our main outdoor circle, one that is obviously large and 'ceremonial' a certain change in consciousess or awareness ( or 'mind phase' ) rises. And it should be that way, certain modes of consciousness and behaviour should be banned from temple or circle ; 'leave it at the door'.

More so on 'Enochian night' ..... the set up, the 'Enochian Temple' the visuals of the 'tablets' ( made large), the others committed to the working arriving (even meeting up with them outside of this ) ... even thinking ' Oh ... it's Enochian night tonight!' would be enough to change my consciousness.

So, even the 'preliminaries' are a good set up , the ritual, the squares, the calls then the specific visualisations and method we set up ......... resulted in very vivid ' journeys'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Maybe that is why journaling is helpful to train catching those fleeting thoughts that otherwise can remain out of awareness. With my dream image of the fire man, I would not have remembered that at all - I only did because I was recalling things for my journal and thought 'hang on- what was that? similarly when doing the LBRP. It's weird what you might get a glimpse of and forget if you don't make a concerted effort to recall it.
Try writing notes when you wake up in the middle of the night. Sometimes I never remembered that I was awake at all .... least what I wrote down then ! ( Insights, poetry, short stories, house designs and blueprints .... ! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I was thinking of getting Duquette's book too. Does it cover scrying the Aethyrs? I have just impulse bought Enochian Magic in Theory by Frater Yechidah. It had some really good reviews on Amazon. I hope so. Last time on impulse I bought AC's Magick in Theory and Practice without really checking and it turned out to be some kind of internet publishing and in really hideous small print.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Enoch.../dp/1908705035

Apparently there is a follow up, Enochian Magic in Practice by Frater Yechidah which came out in hardback this January but is sold out. That has a chapter on scrying the Aethyrs.
I read about Enochian for years ....... none of it gelled or made any sense until I took ..... someone's ( damn, cant remember the author or book ! ) advice to methodically plot out the set up and reasoning visually on paper. Once I understood the set up - zoom, I was off.

A note; I am dead set against some authors claims (like Zalewski's books and others ) who seem to be saying your experience has to be relevant to theirs . In one book I read something like ; in this aether you will be challenged by ........ with a huge ....... you must defeat him to be able to pass to the next level.

Utter Hogwash ! What is that ? Dungeons and Dragons ? ? ?

Being an exploration of one's own psyche, one has one's own levels, triumphs and challenges in different areas , represented by one's OWN symbolic interior world. The LAST thing I am interested in is journey through Pat Zalewski's Unconscious or Crowley's Id !
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
I am wondering if hypnotism sometimes gets a bad reputation from those shows where they supposedly get someone in the audience to cluck like a chicken or something.
Yes , partially. Also check out about bad hypnotherapy ... there has been a spate of exposing it over the last few years

http://bscw.rediris.es/pub/bscw.cgi/...ly_applied.pdf

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Originally Posted by smw View Post

I can't see that someone would do that against their will, if they didn't really want to.
yes, but it isnt working so much as AGAINST the will, but allowing things a freer expression that are normally repressed or controlled by will. Example, a person, under 'regression' (and by subtle masked suggestion ) may 'remember' being molested by a parent. This may be nothing more than a mild Oedipean seed that has been allowed to flower in the unconscious and come out, via hypnosis, in the 'consciousness' . An exact case like this existed in W.A. years back, after a long and horrific court case and charges against a good and innocent father, it was eventually dropped and the girls ' Hypno therapist' was found responsible for it due to the way he managed his patients while they were 'under' .

This has happened a few times !

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...false-memories

Also, there is an oath taken against being hypnotised in some societies initiations . It is seen as an 'impairment of the True Will' .

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post

Although thinking about it, in an everyday sense if there is only one large piece of chocolate cake left the secret impulse might be to grab it...mine... all mine... which is held back by social conditioning. If inhibitions are down and relaxed then maybe you might just do it. on one hand you don't want to, on the other you do
Oh ... that is easily fixed. Just grab it and eat it ! If someone objects ask ...

"Why?" (and when the other says )

"If it was me, I would have been polite and left it for someone else ! " (then you can respond)

"Well, good then , someone else got it ... me ! That's what you would have wanted. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
There seems to be some historical controversy about working with Enochian Magic. According to wiki Paul Foster Case was opposed to it's use and incorporation into the Golden Dawn by MacGregor Mathers.
Yeah but PFC is a bit of a Victorian snob ..... I bet he even objected to the 'stimulation' of the magician by numerous 'assistants' and copious amounts of 'post-Victorianally pure' cocaine .



But seriously .... does he or anyone say why ? I have read that it is one of the most effective for results systems .... which, for me, I agree with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post


I have just been reading something about the calls, it might have been on one of the book reviews I was looking at. That mentioned that they can be quite powerful and caution needs to be exercised. Maybe scrying the Aethyrs is a less direct route to exploring, while using Crowley's visions rather than than going headlong in yourself. This could be a possible buffer, for beginners.
Oohhh .... <wince> .... maybe just to 'read about it' , but still I find even THAT indulgent ! A bit like having to listen to the endless fantastic dreams and details of a young woman one is 'enamoured with' .

As far as the danger aspect goes - no more so than other practices ... the safety practices are not outlined within Enochian, as such, but they should be part of all magical practice and learnt first at the preliminary stage - Enochian is more advanced practice and one should have a basic magical training at least before approaching it in any serious way.

On that note ( as well as the usual structures of banishings and balances ) ;

NOTE : http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib6.html points 1 - 5 . and

" III. If this idea be any but the Supreme and Perfect idea, and the student lose control, the result is insanity, obsession, fanaticism, or paralysis and death (add addiction to gossip and incurable idleness), according to the nature of the failure. " - http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
The other thing that maybe is helpful with this is not getting too internalised with your own stuff as maybe the attempt helps widen your consciousness to take in an 'other's viewpoint. Possibly an empathy stretch... still thinking about it.



this reminds me of a carpenter or artist really loving the medium they are using and connecting with it to realise what they are creating.
yes, and also the diff between making your own 'tools' (and what you learn from doing that ) or just buying them

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib412.html


- " .. ... by his understanding and ingenium devise .... "



.
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I think the type of hypnosis smw was talking about for Enochian magick was self hypnosis anyway. What seems clear is that some sort of trance or altered state of consciousness is precondition for the Magick.
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I think the type of hypnosis smw was talking about for Enochian magick was self hypnosis anyway.
Anyway ? .... Not according to this statement ;


Originally Posted by smw ;
" I am wondering if hypnotism sometimes gets a bad reputation from those shows where they supposedly get someone in the audience to cluck like a chicken or something. "


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
What seems clear is that some sort of trance or altered state of consciousness is precondition for the Magick.
I think so .... one should go into some type of altered state of consciousness during the ceremony - if not it was dud ... or the the person concerned not susceptible.
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