Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum

Barleywine's Astrological Correspondences (split from Astrology & Tarot in TB&M)

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Thoth Tarot


 
Barleywine's Avatar
Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
Elder Jabberwock
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Where the wild things are
Posts: 9,055
Barleywine 
Barleywine's Astrological Correspondences (split from Astrology & Tarot in TB&M)


I can't buy Thierens' reworking, but I have from time to time revisited the Golden Dawn astrological correspondences since there are a few I just can't warm up to no matter how much learned support I see for them. Your post caused me to take a few minutes to organize my thoughts. I created a table (attached) that moves a few things around, and color-correlates the signs to their ruling planets in a way that more closely links Trumps having other apparent commonalities. At this point, it's mainly an intellectual exercise, not a working model, since the GD correspondences are generally satisfactory for their purpose, as shown by long experience.

The assignments I left alone were:

The Magician = Mercury (the quintessential planet of the Intellect and mental gymnastics in general)
The Emperor = Aries (Aries is the "head," and so is the Emperor)
Strength = Leo (the applied power of the Sun)
Justice = Libra (the Scales say it all)
Death = Scorpio (the sign traditionally connected with Death as transformation)
The Tower = Mars (the God of War is about destructive force)
The Star = Aquarius (the idea of the starry "firmament" seems to resonate here)
The Sun = Sun (no explanation needed)

I swapped the following pairs:

Moon = Moon (duh . . .); High Priestess = Pisces (if the Sun can be the "Sun," why can't the Moon be the "Moon?" They're the two most important astrological bodies, and Pisces as the most mystical and nebulous of signs certainly suits the ephemeral nature of the High Priestess.)

Chariot = Jupiter; Wheel of Fortune = Cancer (expansive Jupiter fits the mobile, wide-ranging, victorious nature of the Chariot, while the Cancer glyph embodies the "yin-and-yang" symbol that echoes the dualistic nature of the Wheel of Fortune; it takes some of the ultra-positive, "don't worry, be happy" gloss off of the Wheel of Fortune and balances its focus with the potential for an unfavorable turn of events - without having to confront the specter of smiley-faced Jupiter.)

I made the following reassignments:

Empress = Taurus (the most fertile of signs) and the Lovers = Venus (the Goddess of Love and the Lesser Benefic)

The Hermit = Capricorn (Crowley's goat leaping upon high places, suggesting the applied wisdom of Saturn)

The Devil = Saturn (the etymology and religious mythology seem to support this one)

The Hierophant = Sagittarius (the most traditionally religious of signs)

Temperance = Gemini (the goal of alchemy is mental transmutation and exaltation of the mind, so perhaps Temperance represents the "aspiring philosopher" or "sage-in-training" side of Mercury)

The World = Virgo (the idea of "harvest" seems to be at home here)

I assigned the three modern planets to replace elemental Air, Water and Fire according to my own qabalistic viewpoint:

Fool = Pluto (Spirit as an extension of elemental Air)
Hanged Man = Neptune (elemental Water)
Judgement = Uranus (elemental Fire)

The color-coding links the following in interesting ways:

The Magician, Temperance and the World are connected by their relationship to Mercury (The Magician and The World are associated with the four elements, and Temperance with their admixture)

The Empress, the Lovers and Justice are joined by their connection to Venus (agrarian Taurus seems obvious for the Empress, having a slight edge over the sensual-but-exalted Venus, which I can see standing in for the presiding angel in the Lovers rather than the light-weight, subordinate Cupid - the most common modern interpretation of the Lovers seems to lean that way; Justice partakes of the "evaluative" side of Venus, a higher expression of the Taurean preoccupation with values, and the crucible in which many relationships are tested)

A further word on the Emperor and Empress: assigning Aries to the former and Taurus to the latter creates an obvious convergence of ideas: the Emperor goes to war while the Empress maintains domestic stability. Earthy Taurus for the Empress seems to make more sense than the higher vibration of Venus, which also has an airy side to it. Also, the Sun is exalted in Aries and the Moon in Taurus, bringing together the two luminaries in the same way the Emperor and Empress are paired.

Astrologically speaking, then, the Trumps fall in line this way:

Aries = Emperor (Fire) (IV)
Taurus = Empress (Earth) (III)
Gemini = Temperance (Air) (XIV)
Cancer = Wheel of Fortune (Water) (X)
Leo = Sun (Fire) (VIII)
Virgo = World (Earth) (XXI)
Libra = Justice (Air) (XI)
Scorpio = Death (Water) XIII)
Sagittarius = Hierophant (Fire) (V)
Capricorn = Hermit (Earth) (IX)
Aquarius = Star (Air) (XVII)
Pisces = High Priestess (Water) (II)
Sun = Sun (Fire) (XIX)
Moon = Moon (Water) (XVIII)
Mercury = Magician (Air) (I)
Venus = Lovers (Earth) (VI)
Mars = Tower (Fire) (XVI)
Jupiter = Chariot (Fire) (VII)
Saturn = Devil (Earth) (XV)
Uranus = Judgement (Fire) (XX)
Neptune = Hanged Man (Water) (XII)
Fool = Pluto (Spirit as an extension of Air) (0)

The Fire/Earth/Air/Water series of the first twelve Trumps pairs cards that are mutually strengthening by elemental dignity. It breaks down in the last ten cards when the modern planets are introduced.

The angular series would be: Emperor, Wheel of Fortune, Justice and Hermit
The succedent series would be Empress, Strength, Death and Star
The cadent series would be Temperance, World, Hierophant and High Priestess

I'm going to have to lay this all out with the cards and ponder it.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Revised Astrological Correspondences.pdf (12.4 KB, 84 views)
Top   #1
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 

That looks actually very reasonable actually. After through studies and consideration, if one came up with his own attribution, and it works, then it would be great.

Only problem I could think of in that case would be, the astrological symbols appearing on many decks would become meaningless and distracting, hence forcing the reader go, and create his own deck?
Top   #2
Barleywine's Avatar
Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
Elder Jabberwock
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Where the wild things are
Posts: 9,055
Barleywine 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
That looks actually very reasonable actually. After through studies and consideration, if one came up with his own attribution, and it works, then it would be great.

Only problem I could think of in that case would be, the astrological symbols appearing on many decks would become meaningless and distracting, hence forcing the reader go, and create his own deck?
I think I would just keep the original correspondences in the background as the "bedrock" on which the system was built, and treat my own ideas as an extrapolation or elaboration of those. For example, traditionally the Chariot is Cancer and the Wheel of Fortune is Jupiter; both carry the symbolism of a "wheel." Like many people, I've never been entirely convinced of the Cancer assignment, although the Jupiter one makes sense. But taking a broader view, Cancer and Jupiter are entirely compatible; Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, and as the Greater Benefic it brings the ideas of improvement in fortune and "winning" in general, while Cancer carries the imprint of the highly changeable Moon, similarly suggesting transient conditions and the opportunity for change. Swapping them around caused me no heartburn whatsoever, and I like the Chariot/Jupiter alignment much better, while the Wheel of Fortune/Cancer one has its own redeeming charms.
Top   #3
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
I think I would just keep the original correspondences in the background as the "bedrock" on which the system was built, and treat my own ideas as an extrapolation or elaboration of those. For example, traditionally the Chariot is Cancer and the Wheel of Fortune is Jupiter; both carry the symbolism of a "wheel." Like many people, I've never been entirely convinced of the Cancer assignment, although the Jupiter one makes sense. But taking a broader view, Cancer and Jupiter are entirely compatible; Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, and as the Greater Benefic it brings the ideas of improvement in fortune and "winning" in general, while Cancer carries the imprint of the highly changeable Moon, similarly suggesting transient conditions and the opportunity for change. Swapping them around caused me no heartburn whatsoever, and I like the Chariot/Jupiter alignment much better, while the Wheel of Fortune/Cancer one has its own redeeming charms.
Good idea and makes sense. Thanks.
Top   #4
Samweiss's Avatar
Samweiss  Samweiss is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Apr 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 269
Samweiss 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
I think I would just keep the original correspondences in the background as the "bedrock" on which the system was built, and treat my own ideas as an extrapolation or elaboration of those. For example, traditionally the Chariot is Cancer and the Wheel of Fortune is Jupiter; both carry the symbolism of a "wheel." Like many people, I've never been entirely convinced of the Cancer assignment, although the Jupiter one makes sense. But taking a broader view, Cancer and Jupiter are entirely compatible; Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, and as the Greater Benefic it brings the ideas of improvement in fortune and "winning" in general, while Cancer carries the imprint of the highly changeable Moon, similarly suggesting transient conditions and the opportunity for change. Swapping them around caused me no heartburn whatsoever, and I like the Chariot/Jupiter alignment much better, while the Wheel of Fortune/Cancer one has its own redeeming charms.
Remember that Cancer is also a cardinal sign so movement is in its nature, it is the sign that starts the summer, after all. From the book 'On The Heavenly Spheres' by Helena Avelar & Luis Ribeiro: "The moveable (cardinal) signs that begin the season, are characterized by a strong drive for action, a love of movement and agitation. They represent unexpected and objective actions, but which end as quickly as they began."

Cancer is a feminine sign, but most associate that with things like feelings or motherhood, which makes it seem a bit too passive, if that makes sense. For me the key to understanding Chariot as Cancer was when I read Crowley describing Cancer as the most receptive of signs. Now, if you combine this idea of receptivity with the path of Cheth, then it starts to make more sense. At least, it did for me. To get a more clear picture of my ramblings, refer to 'The Tarot' by Paul Foster Case if you got it. He explains the meaning of Cheyth very well.

Oh, and about Sagittarius and Temperance! In traditional astrology Sagittarius is bi-corporeal or double sign and it has a centaur as its symbol, so we have half man and half beast. Here we have the idea of tempering and the ruling planet, Jupiter, as mediator between animal and angelic(?) natures.

Just my two cents.
Top   #5
Barleywine's Avatar
Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
Elder Jabberwock
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Where the wild things are
Posts: 9,055
Barleywine 

Since Thierens seems to have decided to think completely outside of the box, I did to some extent too So I stayed away from the usual justifications (not that I disagree with very many of them - especially not Case's) and hunted up a new model for those that seemed ripe for it. It's all hypothetical to me, nothing I would hang an interpretation on at this point. But fun to shake it up a bit.
Top   #6
Ruby Jewel's Avatar
Ruby Jewel  Ruby Jewel is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Apr 2014
Location: around
Posts: 1,401
Ruby Jewel 

Hi Barleywine. Interesting view here. I did a somewhat cursory review of this (so far) and in the process picked up one that I would like to talk about here. "Temperance as Gemini." Gemini is the most "intemperate" of the signs. Also, Mercury is the Magician, and the Rx of the Magician is the Devil......it is like saying Donald Trump, the Magician, is "Temperance." (laugh). Donald Trump is a Gemini.
Top   #7
Barleywine's Avatar
Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
Elder Jabberwock
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Where the wild things are
Posts: 9,055
Barleywine 

That's an interesting viewpoint too! I generally don't see any of the Mutable signs as "intemperate," more as enervated and ready to turn over the baton to the next Cardinal in-rush. They really aren't about "extremes" of anything, and can seem "thin" and a bit abstracted compared to the more robust signs. I tend to focus on the "lower mind" aspects of Gemini rather than its more superficial "social chameleon" reputation. Also, I've never seen the Devil as the "reverse" of the Magician; the Magician is a solo act, the Devil needs minions to populate his little drama. Also, pictorially - at least in the RWS - and in concept, the Hierophant and the Devil seem more like opposites - each wants a piece of humanity for its own nefarious purposes . Others have given Gemini to Temperance as well, but I forget who, and it was probably for other reasons. Anyway, this is (mostly) all for fun because I was tweaked by the Thierens thread.
Top   #8
Ruby Jewel's Avatar
Ruby Jewel  Ruby Jewel is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Apr 2014
Location: around
Posts: 1,401
Ruby Jewel 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
That's an interesting viewpoint too! I generally don't see any of the Mutable signs as "intemperate," more as enervated and ready to turn over the baton to the next Cardinal in-rush. They really aren't about "extremes" of anything, and can seem "thin" and a bit abstracted compared to the more robust signs. I tend to focus on the "lower mind" aspects of Gemini rather than its more superficial "social chameleon" reputation. Also, I've never seen the Devil as the "reverse" of the Magician; the Magician is a solo act, the Devil needs minions to populate his little drama. Also, pictorially - at least in the RWS - and in concept, the Hierophant and the Devil seem more like opposites - each wants a piece of humanity for its own nefarious purposes . Others have given Gemini to Temperance as well, but I forget who, and it was probably for other reasons. Anyway, this is (mostly) all for fun because I was tweaked by the Thierens thread.
Assuming your commitment to Crowley, it is possible that you have "The Crowley Tarot" by Akron-Hajo Banshaf. If so, may I refer you to pp. 27-28 and the Lutz Mueller quote. Also, if you have never read "Two Essays on Analytical Psychology" by Carl Jung (Baynes translation if possible).....you have missed what I consider to be the most brilliant book ever written...and I have seen evidence that others agree with me. In it, he describes the "mana" personality (I'm wondering if mana is an etymological derivative of "mania.") which is basically a "split personality" who has never "differentiated" the ego from the demon archetype in the unconscious. The Rx of the Magician is the dark side which is on a power trip....the negative use of the Magician's power. This energy was not a part of The Fool, who is still na´ve, or egoless. The Magician has two aspects: one good and the other evil. From the highest perspective he seeks spiritual truth and employs his powers to that end (ie Shaman); however, he can become a mere trickster (Mercury....remember Appollo's cows), a cunning distorter of the truth, and in the worst sense, the servant of Satan. He is sometimes depicted with a girdle round his waist, and a girdle was the Zoroastrian symbol of dualism. (Most of the foregoing is a quote but don't know the source....just my notes.).

I have to tell you, though, I really do relate to the High Priestess as Pisces....yes!! And actually, the Moon card, which is Pisces, is the higher (or lower??) vibration of the High Priestess.
Top   #9
Ruby Jewel's Avatar
Ruby Jewel  Ruby Jewel is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Apr 2014
Location: around
Posts: 1,401
Ruby Jewel 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
That's an interesting viewpoint too! I generally don't see any of the Mutable signs as "intemperate," more as enervated and ready to turn over the baton to the next Cardinal in-rush. They really aren't about "extremes" of anything, and can seem "thin" and a bit abstracted compared to the more robust signs. I tend to focus on the "lower mind" aspects of Gemini rather than its more superficial "social chameleon" reputation. Also, I've never seen the Devil as the "reverse" of the Magician; the Magician is a solo act, the Devil needs minions to populate his little drama. Also, pictorially - at least in the RWS - and in concept, the Hierophant and the Devil seem more like opposites - each wants a piece of humanity for its own nefarious purposes . Others have given Gemini to Temperance as well, but I forget who, and it was probably for other reasons. Anyway, this is (mostly) all for fun because I was tweaked by the Thierens thread.
Also, Barleywine, I beg to differ on the mutable signs. I never underestimate them. Their defense systems are different, but they always seem to prevail. In fact, I am an Aries, and most of my friends are Leos....but I have never forgotten when I was studying astrology with the greatest astrologist I know, John Marchesella, now head of NCGR, told us all that Sagittarius is the strongest of the fire signs.....we all looked at each other as if to say "huh?".... In fact it irritated the Leo so much she got up and left (laugh). That was back in the 80s. Since then I have observed them as I do all the signs.....and I can say, unequivocally, that he was correct. Pisces is like water....they slip through your fingers....Virgo....is like saying the Hermit is enervated and weak....strength comes in many forms....like the Oak tree and the Pine Tree analogy....the strongest are bendable.....flexible.....even mutable.
Top   #10




 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

Copyright © 1996 - 2019 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.