Four of Swords -- why not death?

Aoife

Firemaiden, you've done it again!

You've triggered me off.....

Images spring to mind of the English Queen Mother's lying in state [April 2002] - four grandsons [in military costume] keeping vigil at the four corners of the catafalque......

Then I'm thinking about the stable, 'Emperor-like' perspective of the number four..... something about the risk of getting stuck there. Four, a foundation for a stable and orderly life.... unless of course we want more... to move beyond tangible understanding into the realms of psyche.

And then I thought about "Women Who Run With the Wolves" Clarissa Pinkola Estes - the story of "Vasalisa The Wise: The Retrieval of Intuition as Initiation" - the 'too-good' mother having to die if she is to embark on her quest to retrive her intuition.

And.... and now I've dried up!
 

firemaiden

Yeah yeah yeah!! Aoife! Yes, Women who run with the wolves...would you mind recapitulating the story of Vasalisa the Wise? Now THIS is interesting!


p.s. You've just passed 100 posts, you get an avatar!! I can't wait to see!
 

firemaiden

Bye the way, Minos, Webfoot, Macavaty, hypatia, cuddles, Minos, Lupo138, thank you all for your interesting posts. I am still pondering the double decker tombs. Yeah, I've seen those. Pretty wild aren't they. As for the pillow, alas, poor Eleanor of Aquitaine has one too, it's made of stone...

Thank you for saying what you see in the window Lupo. The dying ashes of Rachel Pollacks 78 D of W are reminding me that she makes much of this picture -- it reminds her of the Fisher King, a scene of healing, not dying.... oh dear, would any of us have seen that without the book?
 

Mojo

In days of old, when knights were bold....

A history lesson can help you better understand this elusive 4 of Swords fellow.... In the middle ages, Knights were the super jocks of their time. When they went out on crusade, or rescued a damsel in distress, or slayed a dragon, or whatever they did, it was a big public dog and pony show... they were in the spotlight and life was often moving at the speed of light. Image was everything!

Life was full of danger, so when a knight left for a crusade or a mission, there was always the chance that he wouldn't come back alive. Since image was so important, most knights were hesitant to leave their funerary arrangements to anyone else, because they wanted to make sure that they were remembered in the way that they deserved. Leaving a legacy was important as well. So, before a knight went away to do battle, he would prepare his funeral in advance, usually including a chapel and a fancy sarcophogas bearing their likeness in carved relief on top.

If the knight actually DID come back from his adventure alive, the truly chivalrous ones would take some time to rest and recuperate and reflect on whether or not they were true to their mission, their king and their god. Some of them did this by literally laying down in their coffin in an act of humility and contrition.

This is the image that is being shown on the Waite-Smith 4 of Swords. This makes the card about reflection, recuperation, getting in touch with one's basic nature, etc.
 

firemaiden

Mojo said:
..Some of them did this by literally laying down in their coffin in an act of humility and contrition.


NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really Mojo? That is weird. Like Count Dracula? No really, is that true? Well, so that's the image. This is a case of case closed. Of course Mojo, now you know what I am going to ask you next... do you mean, historically they did this, or historically in literature, the characters did this. I'm scanning the ashes of my reading notes from Chrétien de Troyes...alas, all too scarred and burnt to read...and the cobwebs and dustbunnies to my mind's back files too thick to penetrate. Ah woe, which prince will pierce the barren lands and restore life to my sleeping memory?
 

meatbox666

Wow fire maiden you have tons of energy. Think of the four of swords as being.........dead tired? I agree with cuddles also. If it looks like a dead guy to you then go with your intuition. Mine says that he's " dead to the world" That means tired as hell or "dead tired"
 

Thirteen

Mojo[/i] [b]If the knight actually DID come back from his adventure alive said:
Now I will tell you a secret: symbolic death is a very important part of many "initiation rites". I think this is supposed to be the picture of a symbolic death, as part of a sacred initiation rite. But I don't know how to prove it from the picture.

You're quite right. A lot of initiation rituals involve a symbolic death and rebirth--even to the point of putting someone in a coffin or in a hole in the ground. I's say this intuitive interpetation is VERY likely--Especially given Mojo's info here. The knight really is going through a form of initiation in order to rejoin the world of peace after being so long in the world of war.

Hey wait a minute. Thirteenth, Arcana 13, your card is the death card isn't it?

If you don't count the Fool. If you do...then it's the Hanged Man ;)
 

meatbox666

4 of swords as illness? I equate the five of swords as a person having an illness. Well, maybe the person is sleeping alot because they have an illness but it is undiagnosed (4 of swords) When it is diagnosed then it is five of swords. When a person is recuperating from the illness it is 4 of swords reversed. This is my interpretation. Here is an example, a person that is HIV positive would be 4 of swords and full blown AIDS is five of swords. I say HIV and 4 of Swords together because alot of people do not know that they are HIV Positive. You'll know that you have AIDS. That would be hard to ignore so the person will be in the doctors office. Diagnosed 5 of swords. This is just my interpretation.
 

Thirteen

To Cuddles on Tarot: Books vs. Gut

cuddles said:
i'm still sorting out all this card meaning stuff...after 4 months i'm at the point where they are more familiar to me and i'm working out how much meaning to put into what the books tell me/assist me and how much to go with my gut...knowing the gut can be misleading if you don't wanna see it!

I understand your confusion, Cuddles, and here's the thing. There are cards out there, Vision-type cards, decks with pretty pictures, shapes, blank cards, where all you're suppose to do is gaze at them and see whatever it is you can see, like a Rorchach's ink blot. Like looking into a crystal ball or a scrying bowl.

But the thing is, these are TAROT cards. And as much as folk here might urge and urge and urge you to follow your gut, in the end these cards DO come with baggage, with history and libraries of books detailing their meanings. This includes SOME agreed upon interpetations. Not a lot, mind you, but some. If there were none, if you were SUPPOSE to just pick them up and interpet them with no respect at all for historial/agreed--argued over--interpetations, they wouldn't be tarot cards.

so why can't the card mean exactly what she sees? if we are going with out intuition and NOT what books say, why isn't her vision right for her? hasn't umbrae said recently the meanings of the cards are changing for him?

1) She can. There's no Tarot Police looking over her shoulder as she does a reading saying, "You can't interpet that card that way! Against the law!" But here we are again--it's a TAROT deck, and discussing all the symbolism, history of meaning, and various interpetations is part of what Tarot is all about. If it mattered not at all, she wouldn't have bothered asking the question. But it's an interesting question, isn't it? Books say, "Rest," and "healing," but the image is of a coffin lid--why? Why this HISTORY of meaning?

Part of interpeting THE TAROT isn't JUST intuition--it's also a body of information, discussion and learning that ASSISTS that intuition and DEVELOPS it. We learn from Mojo about knights laying in their coffins, and suddenly a whole new way of reading the card comes to light. The more you know, the more flexable and layered the readings. Which brings us to....

2) I'm sure the meaning of the cards will continue to change for Umbrae. As it will for you, as it does for me, as it does for all of us. Meanings change, grow, develop not ONLY as we change, grow and develop, not only as we learn more, but with every reading. I'm quite sure the 4/swords could indicate Death in a given reading. Like words, the cards can form new sentences with new interpetations. That DOESN'T mean that each word doesn't have some agreeded upon definition, though, does it? Words, however, can also change meaning, gain more meanings, lose meanings or have more than one meaning.

It's like a recipe. The first time you try to bake a cake, you follow the recipe exactly (interpet the cards according to the book). And it's not easy, and things go wrong. But you keep at it, and it finally it comes out right. You get confident at making the cake. And NOW is when you can decide what you want to change a few things--the spices, the amount of sugar, the type of frosting. You follow your intuition, your gut, and play with the recipe. Because now you know what you can do to the cake to make it more to your taste--yet not destroy it. The original recipe is still there, still the foundation for the cake, but in the end, it becomes very much your own recipe. And as the years go by, you change it and change it again. That's the tarot.

Does any of this help quiet the wonderful confusion?
 

firemaiden

Thrilling, Thirteen. It's going deeper and deeper. Thank you for tying everything all together here so succinctly. This is getting really, really fun!