X and S or X and O or X and 8

Babalon Jones

Do you all notice the patterns of the saltire (X) in the male pips and the S/8/O in the female pips ( I do not know the heraldic term for the curved ones, is there one?)

Any comment? I sure find it interesting on many levels, but maybe I am weird!
 

mrpants

Hey Babalon,

Are you referring to the repeating pattern of lines/angles in the cards (i.e., straight/diagonal in the males, and circles, double circles, and "S" shaped curved ones in the females)? I'm not familiar with any of the terminology you use.
 

dancing_moon

I've noticed that, but I've always thought it was due to purely pragmatic/artistic reasons: try arranging Coins in Xs or Batons in 8s. :D And the very division into 'male'/'female' suits is also arguable, I think. :)
 

Babalon Jones

Hey Babalon,

Are you referring to the repeating pattern of lines/angles in the cards (i.e., straight/diagonal in the males, and circles, double circles, and "S" shaped curved ones in the females)? I'm not familiar with any of the terminology you use.

Yes, that exactly. i was thinking that maybe it had other layers of meaning, than just design, or even more than male/female force/form. I know X does, but what about the curves? The serpent? i was thinking maybe heraldry had a clue.

Of course it could just be as dancing moon mentioned, that coins are round, etc...still, it evokes something.
 

mrpants

Babalon, there seems to be good evidence of heraldic influence in the Tarot; have you considered asking this question over in History? I think you might find a well established conversation regarding this. Tarothistory.com has quite a few leads as well, though not specifically regarding the courts.


ETA: When you wrote male/female pips, I automatically thought you were referring to the court cards! I see what you are getting at, now.
 

Babalon Jones

One would think it has been covered, but a search of the terms heraldry and pips turned up surprisingly few results. I think there is something there to consider, though.
 

mrpants

I think you're right! Have you read jmd's Reading the Marseille Tarot? I swear he touches on this, but perhaps it wasn't related to the pips, specifically.

I'm going to do some reading up on heraldry, and get back to you when I've thoroughly confused myself.
 

Babalon Jones

Is jmd's Reading the Marseille Tarot a published book, or a thread?

If you find anything of interest I'd love to hear about it. It is something that has been tickling the back of my brain for quite some time now. If I find something, I'll share it too.
 

mrpants

Jean-Michel David's book can be purchased as an e-book here:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/jean-miche...rseille-tarot/paperback/product-15833660.html

It's also available as a print on demand, but it's pricy and HUGE. I got a print copy, and it's on loan right now so I can't reference it. But, if you have a Noblet Marseille in particular, or any TdM, you should own the book because it's jam packed with great historical insight.

Likewise, if I find hard evidence, I'll post here.
 

Babalon Jones

Found an article by Enrique Enriquez (an even better alliteration than my name!) with something interesting:

The Tarot is not the alphabet. The Tarot is an alphabet. Pointing out how the letter A resembles a standing Bateleur won’t be as useful as understanding that letter forms carry suggestions. These suggestions may become more discernible if, instead of seeing each letter as a definitive shape, we see them as snapshots of a graphic continuum. Shape is a consequence of movement, and movement is a visual manifestation of space. For the sake of orientation, let’s imagine two spatial axes, a vertical one that we will define as ‘being’ and an horizontal one that we will define as ‘becoming’. A single vertical stroke creates the most minimal shape in our alphabet, the letter I. We could take this basic shape as reference, and establish it as “being.” The letter I would represent the individual. Now, let’s assume that our sense of being gets reshaped by our sense of becoming. This is, when the vertical axis represented by the letter I is activated horizontally, we have the letter I reshaping itself to form all the other letters of the alphabet. When the letter I breaks apart and becomes receptive to the ground, we have an A. When the letter I grows arms to embrace the world, it creates the letter B. If the letter I curves itself, forming a letter C, it becomes receptive to the future. This way, by understanding the ‘motion’ that took place for the original vertical stroke to become any other letter, the content of such movements becomes an indirect tale. Each letter becomes a play, a narrative with a beginning, a middle, and an end, giving us the chance to experience the alphabet in an entirely new way. This cognitive shift is similar to the one necessary for us if we want to abandon a symbolic conception of the Tarot, and start speaking the Marseille Tarot’s true language. This is a vocabulary made of shapes, and focusing on them is a visual meditation. This way, if we look at two cards in a row we can ask ourselves: “what needs to happen for this image to become that other one”?

For the full article:

http://newsletter.tarotstudies.org/2008/03/whispering-to-the-eye/