Four of Swords -- why not death?

firemaiden

Greetings O Wise/Wizened/Wizard ones and Fools:

Okay, I'm looking at the pictures now, because all my books are roasting on the fire. So here I am looking at this RWS 4 of Swords. One thing bugs me. The guy looks dead. This looks like to me 100% like a sarcaphagus adorned with the typical medieval sculpted likeness of the deceased person inside.

...The books are roasting, but they are calling out from the fire: "nooooo he's not deeeeeeeeead.......just withdraaaaaawn..."

Shut up books, what do you know, the guy is dead, I tell you, he's a sarcophagal effigy. Like this one, look: (Aliénore d'Aquitaine)http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/EofAreturns.html

"noooooooooooo...............he's not dead, he's just reeesting, see?"

Oh, do shut up! can't you burn a little faster? He's dead I tell you, he's dead.

"he's deeeeeeeeeeead like Julieeeeeeeeeeet after she drank the deeeeeeeeeath-sleeeeeeeeep poison"

Okay, they put her on a sarcaphagus too, but she was not made of stone.

"not dead....just sleeeeeeeeping..."

"Okay, you mean like hibernating? So why the &*%$#! didn't they paint a wintering bear? Or a catepillar in cocoon??

"sorry gotto goooooooooo....aaaaaaaaall buuuuuuuurned...bye"


Your thoughts pleeeeeeeeeease...
 

Francesca

The tarot is symbolic, that's why she's not dead. At least, not dead forever.

THis card could be associated with the part of the King Arthur legend that says he will wake up from his death sleep when his country needs him again.

So he is waiting, not really dead.

Do you associate the Death card with Death?

Francesca
 

Macavity

Good question! Heheh. (tongue in cheek) I do sometimes wonder myself. I mean "death" couldn't possibly mean... uhm "death" right? Or the devil? etc. (Yeah, I know, but...) Perhaps medieval spin doctors existed to put forward a postive interpretion even way back then? }) Always look on the briiiiiight side of life de dum de dum de dum de dum... Ah memories. Perhaps a warning not to be TOO serious?

For another slightly irreverant perspective see Jim Revak's site: http://www.villarevak.org/kct/kct_1.html Some are quite brilliant - King of cups: "A throned man is threatened by rising water. You will soon have plumbing problems in your house. Occasionally this card may imply worse disasters: floods, tidal waves, shipwrecks, and the like. etc. etc. " Love it! :D

Macavity
 

Aoife

Firemaiden I just love your style!

You have the capacity to really make me think - which is pretty difficult for me at the best of times but particularly when in competition with my need to LOL at your wonderfully expressive style!

From our brief [but for me, deeply meaningful] acquaintance I get the impression that you are someone who lives life to the full - there's a vibrancy, a sheer love of life jumping out from my computer screen. I bet your life is very full and interesting and ACTIVE!! - if not always in a physical sense, certainly in an inner sense.

And that for me is the key - those people who are very active find it hard to conceive of the value of rest. A marathon-runner friend of mine has told me how she resents her need to sleep - she knows she has to sleep to be able to perform but she'd much rather spend the time running. When I was younger I'd sometimes feel guilty about reading [a message from my childhood, I think] that I should stop being so introspective and be out 'doing'.

So...... take it from a melancholic soul like me that resting isn't like death. I know it might feel that way for a fiery soul but instead, shut out the voices of the books and look into the flames as they burn. Ahhh.... such invigorating peace!
 

firemaiden

Francesca said:
Do you associate the Death card with Death?

Golly Jeepers, I dunno, it sure looks death on the card. I mean there is that sickle and skull and bits and pieces of chopped up people on the ground. There's the grim reaper, le squelette faucheur, another antique, or at least medieval topos...

".......oh no.......aïiiiiiiiiiiiiii....I'm burning...I can't contradict her........oh no.........Deeeeeeeeath is meeeeeeeetaaaaaamorphisis"

Shut up books, do you think you are going to fly out of that fire all radiant orange plumage, squawking all hellfire with crystal clear legible pages ? Not a chance, buddies, you're burning, I tell you! Burning!

".............no...........we will reeeeeeeevive.....in your cooooomputer.... the electricity of our thoughts....like fire will snap and crackle in your frooontal looooooooooobes..."

Um...er.. how embarassing, okay, as I was saying, when I just look at the picture, I don't get sleep. I get dead. As in deceased.

as in:
'E's bleedin' demised! [...] He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you
hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!
'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig!
'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run
down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
 

firemaiden

Re: Firemaiden I just love your style!

Aoife said:
You have the capacity to really make me think - which is pretty difficult for me at the best of times

Thank you Aoife!! (just think, if you say Eve with a cockney accent you don't need to translate it into Welsh to get Aoife)

I think you do a smashing job thinking all the time! But look, please tell me, what do you see in the picture that looks like it will rise up again? no really, just in the picture? I'm not talking about whether I like to rest or not....more indolent than I the world knows not...but this is really bugging me. Can we please just look at the picture?
 

Thirteen

Sleep is related to Death

There is a thought that goes up through to Shakespeare about "little deaths" and things that are related to Death, but not, well, dead yet. Sickness, Sleep, even sex (the belief was that a man "died" a bit when he climaxed). Remember that even up to the 19th century, there was a terror people had of being buried alive--it was a very real fear, because all too often folk who were very sick looked to be dead....but weren't. Mistakes honestly did happen, frequently enough that people arranged for little bells to be put on their coffins that they could ring from inside...just in case!

Which makes the Arthur idea even more right. The concept that one may be in a state of illness or sleep that MIRRORS death, but isn't. Think cryogenics rather than death. The King will return, and with him, Camelot. Reflects the dying god myth. The god isn't dead but sleeping underground, waiting to rise again.

This is prehaps one of those situations where the meaning of the card might be better served by just having 4 swords on it rather than an image. That said, you're absolutely right that RW goes for an image that is more like a knight atop a coffin, then someone just resting and recouperating. But then, Waite was a Victorian/Edwardian man. He would be familar with (1) the folk who were buried with bells on the coffin, just in case, and (2) Arthurian legend--which was VERY popular back then. The return of Arthur for a new age, the return of Camelot. The King may look dead--but he isn't. He's only in suspension, waiting.
 

firemaiden

Sigh...must I give up on trying to find it in the image itself?


Thank you Thirteen. Yes, death and sleep are related...and orgasm, oui, "la petite mort".. Hey wait a minute. Thirteenth, Arcana 13, your card is the death card isn't it?
 

Aoife

The only other thing that occurs to me [and I really don't know enough to be sure of what I'm talking about] - is that in the Christian faith, one interred as this chappie appears to be - i.e. in a sanctified place [church/stained glass windows] is never really dead. 'is metabolic processes may be 'istory' but his immortal soul is not. The knight is merely resting, awaiting the day of judgement when he will be transported to heaven and everlasting life.

As for my name...... [come closer, I don't want anyone else to know!.... ~Aoife whispers into Firemaiden's ear~ ..... just after I joined I saw my name and thought 'oh s**t!.... what have I done.... if you pronounce my name slowly and phonetically [and within earshot] someone will come running to ask if you're alright and if they can assist you to the loo! I've got a horrible feeling my presence here makes some feel dreadfully nauseous!]
 

firemaiden

Thanks Aoife. Okay, that's something I can work with. I'll ponder this a bit.

Books: ".......... a hiiiiiiiiiiint...what do you see in the stained glaaaaaaaaaaass window...............?

Oh! Does anyone have a big enough reproduction of the card to see what's in the window?

p.s. Aoife re: name -- ROFLPP!!