Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Live Tarot Readings Tarot Card Meanings Forum Archive

Confused over not connecting with Thoth

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Thoth Tarot


 
Richard's Avatar
Richard  Richard is offline
Le Mat
 
Join Date: 21 Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,587
Richard 
Le Mat

Richard's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absynthe View Post
......I never could connect to christianity as a concept either, and the original RWS imagery looks identical to an illustrated bible that I used to own as a child.
Yes, unlike the Thoth, the Major Arcana of the RWS are mostly based on those of the Marseille, which was the product of a European culture dominated by Christianity.
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #31
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 
Citizen

foolMoon's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Yes, unlike the Thoth, the Major Arcana of the RWS are mostly based on those of the Marseille, which was the product of a European culture dominated by Christianity.
Then a few questions arise.

1. What was the stance / idea of Crowley for the Christianity especially from the Thoth deck design and his philosophical & religious point of view?

2. What was the ideological relation between RWS & TdM and Christianity? Why churches have been opposing to Tarot reading?

3. Would it have been just dominating cultural product at the time, or are there deeper connections between them?
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #32
Richard's Avatar
Richard  Richard is offline
Le Mat
 
Join Date: 21 Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,587
Richard 
Le Mat

Richard's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Then a few questions arise.

.....
Interesting questions, but I was commenting only on the imagery of the RWS Major Arcana, which did not depart radically from those of pre-GD decks. Even the imagery of the Minors was influenced by Sola Busca and Etteilla, although the GD's adaptation of the Picatrix Decans seems to have been applied.
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #33
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 
Citizen

foolMoon's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Interesting questions, but I was commenting only on the imagery of the RWS Major Arcana, which did not depart radically from those of pre-GD decks. Even the imagery of the Minors was influenced by Sola Busca and Etteilla, although the GD's adaptation of the Picatrix Decans seems to have been applied.
I am genuinely interested in this subject, hence the questions popped up. Not criticising.
Maybe this is a bit off topic from OP, and could be discussed in a new thread. Or maybe there are older threads discussing this topic, I am not sure. Anyone?
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #34
Richard's Avatar
Richard  Richard is offline
Le Mat
 
Join Date: 21 Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,587
Richard 
Le Mat

Richard's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I am genuinely interested in this subject, hence the questions popped up. Not criticising.
Maybe this is a bit off topic from OP, and could be discussed in a new thread. Or maybe there are older threads discussing this topic, I am not sure. Anyone?
I didn't think that you were criticizing. Perhaps Tarot History & Development would be a more appropriate forum for the topic.
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #35
Michael Sternbach's Avatar
Michael Sternbach  Michael Sternbach is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 942
Michael Sternbach 
Citizen

Michael Sternbach's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Then a few questions arise.

1. What was the stance / idea of Crowley for the Christianity especially from the Thoth deck design and his philosophical & religious point of view?
He only refers to Christianity as anti-thesis to his own system, Thelema. Jesus Christ is identified with the "dying God" of the previous age, and pallid Christian clerics in a praying posture can be seen in the background on Trump XI (Lust), which is dominated by the Scarlet Woman riding on the multi-headed Beast, both characters taken straight out of the Revelation of John, which, in Crowley's book, heralded the Coming of the Age of Horus, with Thelema as its prevalent religion, to be sure...

Quote:
2. What was the ideological relation between RWS & TdM and Christianity? Why churches have been opposing to Tarot reading?
Tarot Christianity is much closer to Christian mysticism, European Alchemy, Temple Knights and Gnosticism than to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, thus it was looked at by the latter with great suspicion. And a card like The Popess didn't exactly facilitate a better communication...

Quote:
3. Would it have been just dominating cultural product at the time, or are there deeper connections between them?
Well, Christian symbolism is one way to express the archetypal/universal knowledge underlying Tarot. There are others; for instance, Maria is another form of the Egyptian deity Isis. Again, you would have to look into the mystical/esoteric currents of Christianity for further insight into this.
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #36
smw's Avatar
smw  smw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Sep 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 623
smw 
Citizen

smw's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Then a few questions arise.

1. What was the stance / idea of Crowley for the Christianity especially from the Thoth deck design and his philosophical & religious point of view?
Interesting question, I haven't much time at the moment, though I have just had a quick look in In Crowley's Magick in Theory and Practice. In chapter XXI he mentions disastrous misunderstandings about Nu, Had and Jesus and John ( no idea about this) and refers to other writers that should be consulted for this complicated area and for his considerations - one being Gerald Massey

Quote:
Originally Posted by WIKI
One of the more important aspects of Massey's writings were his assertions that there were parallels between Jesus and the Egyptian god Horus, primarily contained in the book

[/QUOTE= Massey]Christian ignorance notwithstanding, the Gnostic Jesus is the Egyptian Horus who was continued by the various sects of gnostics under both the names of Horus and of Jesus. In the gnostic iconography of the Roman Catacombs child-Horus reappears as the mummy-babe who wears the solar disc. The royal Horus is represented in the cloak of royalty, and the phallic emblem found there witnesses to Jesus being Horus of the resurrection.
looks controversial
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #37
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 
Citizen

foolMoon's Avatar

Great posts Michael and smw. Thank you for that.

It's interesting to realise, and at the same important for us to remind ourselves that Christianity had mystic and gnostic origins, which is linked to Tarot, Magick and Divination. These are shadowy, and almost forgotten past of them by public.

But they are still here and everywhere around us, affecting large parts on our psychology, consciousness and daily lives, it seems.

Although this discussion might sound off topic from the OP, good knowledge on these areas of Tarot i.e. the origin and philosophy of it, enable us to move one step closer to understanding and connecting to Tarot decks, be it Thoth, RWS or TdM.
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #38
smw's Avatar
smw  smw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Sep 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 623
smw 
Citizen

smw's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Great posts Michael and smw. Thank you for that.

It's interesting to realise, and at the same important for us to remind ourselves that Christianity had mystic and gnostic origins, which is linked to Tarot, Magick and Divination. These are shadowy, and almost forgotten past of them by public.
The Apocryphon (secret revelation) of John looks fascinating.. I remember having a thing about the Gnostics (and the Cathars) a long time back, but couldn't really remember what it was

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-long.html
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #39
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 
Citizen

foolMoon's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
The Apocryphon (secret revelation) of John looks fascinating.. I remember having a thing about the Gnostics (and the Cathars) a long time back, but couldn't really remember what it was

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-long.html
I am interested to learn about the Gnositics as well. There were study group meet ups locally, but now closed for next season (autumn).

I think all of them (whatever sectors of the religion and the Magickal Orders) are aiming at the same goal - Reuniting with God. Their methods of approach (prayers, meditation, rituals, yogas ... etc) may be different. Different people may find some methods more effective than others.
 Need help? Get your live Tarot Reading now      Top   #40


 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Forum Archive
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

The Aeclectic Tarot Forum closed permanently on July 14th, 2017. The public threads remain online as a read-only archive and resource. More information on our decision can be found here. Thank you for being a part of our active community over the past seventeen years.

Copyright © 1996 - 2017 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.