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Moonbow  Moonbow is offline
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In recent years I have paid less notice to the elements when it comes to reading with a Marseilles deck, although I'm sure that at times my past studies of the WCS system have influenced my readings and probably still do at times.

More recently I don't consciously link any theme to the cards but instead I just notice their interaction with each other. I look at the patterns that the pip implements create, and use just simple numerology. Keeping things simple and not 'thinking' too much about what is expected of the card brings better results for me. Reading methods aren't stable for me either, I chop and change whilst trying out what I read about other people doing, I take it all in, and then do my own thing.

Lovely to see this thread bumped and Mel's elemental researches mentioned.
Top   #41
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When this thread was first started back in 02, I was trying to read TdM mainly with RWS correspondences - it didn't work and it did take me a while to realise that I was stuck firmly in the RWS rut of reading.

I still struggle with TdM pip cards - although using numerology is interesting, I still find I can read better with fully illustrated pip cards, although these days not necessarily RWS symbolism.
Top   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernice
(But I am wondering what on earth the Ace Wands might represent).
Um, my copy is in temporary hiding (it knows I've said I'm only next going to touch it the night I have to remain awake all night without the shift-worker's privilege of sleeping in the day before or after, so it's sulking), but I;'ve had a look at the URL you provided to refresh my memory.

The Hand of God is pretty obvious - that's common to a lot of Aces in a lot of decks.

It's holding *one* wand in that it grew from one root, but it branches into three for the Triple Goddess (or the Holy Trinity depending on your background), and they in turn branch into ten to symbolise that the whole of the ten are implied or included in the One. That the Ace is all and everything, that nothing else can exist without the Ace.

My take. Your (or Regardie's) opinions may differ; but if they do everyone (yes, even Old Israel Himself) are WRONG and need to Learn From Me! <grin>
Top   #43
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Quote:
Ace Wands: It's holding *one* wand in that it grew from one root, but it branches into three for the Triple Goddess (or the Holy Trinity depending on your background), and they in turn branch into ten to symbolise that the whole of the ten are implied or included in the One. That the Ace is all and everything, that nothing else can exist without the Ace.
GD = The Tree. Of course! But if I were the artist it wouldn't look like that (weird).

In an earlier history thread I dicovered that the word "ace" was originally rather negative - I think it was Moonbow who has this information - I promptly got myself a 'regular' 52 card deck that is numbered from 1 to 13, no aces, and kings, queens, & jacks are 11, 12, 13. I find it very useful for considering the numbers, it prevents me from relying on the tarots' 'visual' prompt. So although I still keep one of the meanings of an 'ace' as a Beginning (however nebulous), they now tend to carry less weight for me. i.e. Not a Kether association.

I've also had a foray into the chinese 'elements' for the pips. And yes, I know there are five not four . But because it's now belived that the pip deck was of chinese origins (very ancient) I wanted to incorporate something of their heritage. It's something that I still play around with........


Bee
Top   #44
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Well, the day I'm going to pull an over-nighter and will need entertainment to keep me awake is still off in the future, but I stole some time from the usual Sunday housekeeping chores, and spent a little time with my collection.

The Wang/Regardie deck has disappeared.

Damndamndamndamndamn.

Every single deck got opened, shuffled, and re-wrapped.

The GD deck in question is in fact one of that minority of decks I'm quite attached to that hasn't yet scored itself a silk wrap or a bag to live in, but stays in its original packaging, sans LWB. I can see that packaging in my mind's eye.

I had it *here* (ie, at my computer table) a few weeks ago, when I was commenting on it in another thread, in fact, from memory defending it on trumped-up charges of being badly-illustrated. It's not here now, which of course means that I put it back in its box and put that back in the huge basket where they all live (what can I say - I'm an Earth sign).

Every single deck got opened, shuffled and re-wrapped. I couldn't see its packaging as I took them all out and that gave me a bad feeling, but what the hey, I *might* have given it a wrap or bag in the meantime and forgotten about it. But no. Not there.

This deck is not only Worth It as one of my Important Historical Decks, but it's personally crucial for me. I only take it out occasionally, but it is one of the two last tangible links to a friend of mine that I met in 1977, who became one of my Very Important People. His boyfriend, who died early in our friendship of that horrible disease that was just gaining a reputation in the early eighties, had studied under Israel Regardie when he was a younger man, and had all of his books, inscribed and with personal annotations from the Master in the text, amongst his things which Trevor inherited lock, stock and barrel. Trevor wasn't all that mystically inclined, but he respected G. and his choices enough to honour them, and once or twice during the eighties and early nineties lent me a book or two from the Regardie Collection, which put me in a very honoured position.

I only bought the deck very recently, possibly in the last twelvemonth, as a conscious tribute to the memory not only of G., but mostly my thirty-year friendship with Trevor. I only used it occasionally, but I looked at it more often. Along with an inscribed copy of Inez Baranay's book "Pagan" which Trevor bought to replace the copy he borrowed and then entirely ruined, this deck was my last "thing to sit with" when I'm missing him. Now I only have the book.

<sadness>

I don't lose decks when I'm away from home. It's not by the computer, in my work-bag or where the collection is, so it's gone from the house. There have only been four non-residents in the house, and three of them are entirely uninterested in Tarot (don't even have enough interest to dislike it), the fourth is a Tarotista, but not one who would steal, and not one who knows where the bulk of the collection sleeps when it's off-duty.

Oh well, one more non-scenic deck that I don't have to defend using against those who "need" pictures "to give depth to the reading".

<sadness>

Can't recollect just yet who it was asked me what I do to cheer myself up and I said I so rarely need cheering up? You watching? - You won't see this often.

Well, I Officially Need Cheering Up, these last ten minutes or so. And I know *exactly* what would be the most perfect way to cheer me up: if when I get up from the computer, our House Goblin led me straight to the GD deck, wherever it was. Sitting with that deck would cheer me up. Mind you, I'll be pretty cheerful in a few minutes - I usually am.

<sadness>

Such a strange feeling. People *live* like this?

<sadness>
Top   #45
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(((Nisaba))) I hope your House Goblin already has you by the hand and is now showing you where that deck is hiding!! Or at least that it turns up in the next day or so.

Bee, love what you are saying about the elements and how they may have been envisioned back in the day when these historic decks were being used. I really want to see these decks gain enough popularity all over the world, so that one day soon I may walk into an esoteric shop here in the states and actually find one for sale.

Mel put so much information and knowledge into that system for a very good reason, and I can only assume it is because these decks are not RWS based and should be treated like a much different animal.
Top   #46
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(((Nisaba)))

If I had a copy I'd send it to you, but it wouldn't be the same and anyway I don't have a copy...

It'll come home sooner or later - it's odd where things hide when they don't want to be found but later they turn up all bright eyed. I'll keep hoping for you.....
Top   #47
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<doubtfully> I don't *think* it's been stolen. I've checked all the places a Tarot deck should be in, then all the places a Tarot deck *could* be in.

Note to self: when you're finished online, check inside the fridge.

<grin>

Thought that I've been denying for a little while: Perhaps this is the universe's way of telling me Trevor has died.

And I *did* so want to try that system out on this particular deck! I have several non-illustrated decks, but this was the one I was gearing up for. Boggrrr.
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So what elements do people use for the implements on non-illustrated decks?

And

What implement goes with what element?

Mel explains (below), the meaning for the elements, traditional and modern, but for those wanting to relate 1:1 (implement and element), how can you say that Fire is Baton, for example? What makes a Baton the Fire element? Why isn't Air a Baton?

These questions need answering before we can set any method, unless we see all elements in all implements?!

Element.....Traditional View...........Modern View

Fire.........dynamic, decisive................(same)
...............impulsive, angry......................

Air......sociable, light-hearted.....intellectual, analytical,
............inconsistent, fickle.........critical, unemotional

Water.....calm, methodical..........emotional, deep-feeling,
.............dependable, dull...............moody, sensitive

Earth......introspective, sensitive......stable, dependable
...............depressed, moody..............stubborn, dull

I've been reading some cartomancy sites and the numerology which some people use for ordinary playing cards and I'm certain some readers will find it useful to look at these sites when finding their own method of reading pips.
Top   #49
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Element.....Traditional View...........Modern View

Fire.........dynamic, decisive................(same)
...............impulsive, angry......................

Air......sociable, light-hearted.....intellectual, analytical,
............inconsistent, fickle.........critical, unemotional

Water.....calm, methodical..........emotional, deep-feeling,
.............dependable, dull...............moody, sensitive

Earth......introspective, sensitive......stable, dependable
...............depressed, moody..............stubborn, dull



Weird isn't it, how the only one that has had staying power as far as its attributes are concerned is the element of fire?

Air seems to have undergone quite a big change, and water too. I can see how earth could be depressed, I mean toiling away in the field all day long would take that spark of joy right out of you.

To answer your question, MB*, I am also trying to use Mel's elemental attributes that you've listed above (or below). I was surprised at how easily they clicked with me, and now I find trying to look at the other way I had thought of the elements (the GD based way) does not hold a lot of water for me. It makes sense that coins and water are connected, and the seafaring connection to trade and money just rings true, especially looking at the ace of coins in most of these decks, it totally does look like a mariner's compass rose. Though I do not usually spend a whole lotta time on the elements when trying to read, unless the cards in a reading seem vague, I don't go looking for more things to lay onto them, so the elemental attributes usually only get attention when I am stumped.
Top   #50


 


 


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