Astrology and the Tarot

JLDulin

In order to understand the essences of the tarot cards and their deeper meanings, I would like to know how the elemental associations combine with the astrological associations to form the meanings of the cards. To that end, does anyone know of a book that teaches this underlying structure of the tarot?

Perhaps I am approaching this with the wrong question. How does one arrive at the underlying structure of the tarot without doing reverse engineering? What I am after is a book that does more than state the meanings of the cards. I want to know why the meanings are what they are. A book to that end would include, I suppose, a discussion of the four elements and how they juxtapose with the astrological associations to derive the meanings of the cards. A book like this is what I seek. I would also like this book to be as relatively authoritative as possible. If the esoteric method is a true science, there must be a corresponding reality; even though the daimen reality of "the other world" almost certainly presents us with a kind of moving target when the true meanings are sought.

My reason for seeking this is because my goal is to not simply work with a system that seems to work, but to see beyond the mundane world for spiritual reasons—my primary goal for using the tarot. With all the lore surrounding the tarot, maybe this is a difficult question. However, somebody is likely to have a clue; considering the depths of occult experience so any claim to have.

Thanks.
 

Richard

The basis for the Golden Dawn's theory of Tarot is Qabalah. The astrological and elemental attributions of the Trumps were not directly applied to the cards but are a result of correlating the Trumps with the Hebrew alphabet and then using the astrological correlations of the Hebrew letters given in the Golden Dawn's version of the Sepher Yetzirah, the oldest extant Qabalistic document. The best way to get at the information is probably through DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah and his Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot.

For a single book that comes closest to what you want, Corrine Kenner's Tarot and Astrology comes highly recommended, but I do not have the book. She may go further into astrology than is necessary for an understanding of the cards. For the Minors, some knowledge of the Decans (10 degree sectors of the Zodiac) is needed, and she probably covers the astrological basics to this extent at least. Her book is Golden Dawn based, so it is relevant to the Golden Dawn and Thoth decks (as well as Rider-Waite to a significant extent).
 

ravenest

I think it is a hard question to answer, because I have to 'reverse engineer'.

IMO people never had this knowledge and said 'Okay, now lets make a tarot deck that incorporates all of this.' - sorry, it just didnt come about that way ( refer to History Forum) .... the gnosis developed and then people saw similarities within the tarot that it could be 'patched' into / onto.

Thats why I said earlier it is via analogy and association.

In order to understand the essences of the tarot cards and their deeper meanings, I would like to know how the elemental associations combine with the astrological associations


I would suggest getting this first ... and THEN

to form the meanings of the cards.

It makes it further difficult as
To that end, does anyone know of a book that teaches this underlying structure of the tarot?

That is, it makes it hard to explain because you are wanting another source - a book.
Perhaps I am approaching this with the wrong question. How does one arrive at the underlying structure of the tarot without doing reverse engineering?

see above

What I am after is a book that does more than state the meanings of the cards. I want to know why the meanings are what they are. A book to that end would include, I suppose, a discussion of the four elements and how they juxtapose with the astrological associations

Okay, that can be done ... see below *

to derive the meanings of the cards. A book like this is what I seek. I would also like this book to be as relatively authoritative as possible. If the esoteric method is a true science, there must be a corresponding reality; even though the daimen reality of "the other world" almost certainly presents us with a kind of moving target when the true meanings are sought.

My reason for seeking this is because my goal is to not simply work with a system that seems to work, but to see beyond the mundane world for spiritual reasons—my primary goal for using the tarot. With all the lore surrounding the tarot, maybe this is a difficult question. However, somebody is likely to have a clue; considering the depths of occult experience so any claim to have.

Thanks.

But regardless of experience (and its claims) a thing cant be delivered that doesnt actually exist ( go back to my first comment - I mean I might be wrong, but I think the tarot was NOT made to be an expression of these forces and principles, well, it MAY have been , but if it was there is no historical trace .... it was patched in later).

Anyway, if you are serious start here: ... it might take a while to get down before you come to tarot ... but if you get this first, you will have a firm foundation;

first and 'easiest' (briefest that is); 'Hermes';

http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/emerald.htm

then 'Homer' ;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/catena1.htm

[Note ... these is just strands of the web , it starts much earlier than these 'first' developments ... but it is fairly well accepted as authoritative .... within the tradition. ]


As one soon sees , 'reality' or 'experience' is based on 3 principles of 'movement' :

Up/ down - vertical, forward back and left right - horizontal.
Light, Temperature and Moisture; from this comes Light and darkness (mercury) - hot or cold - Mars, moist or dry - Venus. It also represents primal drives and their resolutions within the human psyche and the basic requirements of life.

Three basic elements, relate to the Three elemental tarot cards. Why? Because there were 3 left over that sort of fitted after the main more obvious associations were matched.

Sorry, I CANT un-reverse-engineer it.

Unless I use kabbalah and say those cards are attributed through the 3 Hebrew Mother Letters ... but that is the snake biting its own tail IMO ... to follow that one through I have to recommend this: (but I dont know a good SINGLE book on it)

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/TBxcH-ITMjY/0.jpg
 

Zephyros

I'm not sure what reverse engineering you're referring to, especially when you say you don't want meanings. Each card is a composite, each element adding meaning or shading existing significance. Paramount is the Kabbalistic association, with the astrological attribution adding depth, saying the same thing differently or having a special quality like in the Hermit (it's usually all three). The basic structure of the Tree of Life is quite easy to learn, and is the real nitty-gritty of Tarot, the cogs of the machine. The elements are closely connected with this, it's what makes them work.

LRichard's recommendations for books are the way I learned, supplemented by other books. But from my understanding, astrology is used mainly to put forth ideas, to semantically support the other aspects, so the attributions are less "Aries is in March" but "Aries is Power."

Could you explain your question further?
 

Richard

.....Unless I use kabbalah and say those cards are attributed through the 3 Hebrew Mother Letters ... but that is the snake biting its own tail IMO ... to follow that one through I have to recommend this: (but I dont know a good SINGLE book on it)

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/TBxcH-ITMjY/0.jpg

The Hebrew-Tarot correlations is an order isomorphism between the numerical order of the Tarot cards and the alphabetical order of the Hebrew letters. Once the correlations were established, the distinction between the Mother, Double, and Simple letters associated the cards with the corresponding Elements, Planets, or Constellations, respectively. The Cube of Space, while distinguishing geometrically between the letter classifications, was icing on the cake, in that it made possible directional classifications of the cards. It provides a meaningful spatial arrangement of the cards, so that, among other things, they can be associated with the officers and objects in a Lodge setting.
 

Richard

......My reason for seeking this is because my goal is to not simply work with a system that seems to work, but to see beyond the mundane world for spiritual reasons—my primary goal for using the tarot. With all the lore surrounding the tarot, maybe this is a difficult question. However, somebody is likely to have a clue; considering the depths of occult experience so any claim to have.

Thanks.
I don't claim to have deep occult experience (whatever that means), but I do know that Qabalah provides the link between Tarot and the cosmos. The true spiritual significance of Tarot becomes obvious when the cards are mapped onto the Qabalistic Tree of Life. This Tree is a diagram not only of the whole of reality, but also for each of the four worlds, as well as the so-called individual human being. It provides a common structure for both the macrocosm and the microcosm, consequently clarifying the 'above' and 'below' of the Emerald Tablet, as well as the 'inner' and 'outer' of the Gnostic document The Gospel of Thomas. Tarot is a gateway to the whole of reality via the Tree of Life.

An extremely important book, so obvious that I forgot to mention it, which discusses the Trumps from this esoteric perspective (without going into detail about the Tree of Life), is The Tarot by P. F. Case. Among other things, it utilizes the Cube of Space in relation to the Trumps. It is a must-have for many who are into esoteric Tarot, including me.
 

foolMoon

What about the 22 Major arcana cards and their association with numbers? What is the origin / base of them? Would this question be better in new topic? I think it might be relevant to OP albeit somewhat in remote way.
 

JLDulin

I'm not sure what reverse engineering you're referring to, especially when you say you don't want meanings.

...



Could you explain your question further?


Reverse engineering refers to the process of discovering how the tarot system was developed in the first place by studying the end result of the process—the tarot. It is the same as one finding out how a spy-plane or a U.S. drone is manufactured by taking it apart and putting it back together. I am interested in the meanings of the cards. I am not after a book that does not state the meanings of the cards. What I am after is a book that does more than state the meanings of the cards.

Precisely, my question is how the tarot's system and meanings were developed. Because that is too vague, I wrote the original post because I am interested in the objective basis of the system; even though the system seems to depict the constantly changing daimon (not demon) reality. In forming my question, I assumed astrology and the elements must have inspired the meanings of the cards.
 

Richard

What about the 22 Major arcana cards and their association with numbers? What is the origin / base of them? Would this question be better in new topic? I think it might be relevant to OP somewhat in remote way.
It has been conjectured that the numbering evolved from their relative strength in a trick-taking card game.

Do you have any ideas about this?

Whatever the origin of the ordering, the idea that it may have some occult significance seems to be historically unverifiable. If there were some sort of woo-woo influences, it cannot be proven.

However, this does not deter the occultists from thinking otherwise. Some Tarot 'experts' hypothesize that there are two parallel patterns of development, one being historical, the other reflecting occult influences. Since you cannot disprove the latter, it is popular among New Age oriented readers.
 

JLDulin

I think it is a hard question to answer, because I have to 'reverse engineer'.

IMO people never had this knowledge and said 'Okay, now lets make a tarot deck that incorporates all of this.' - sorry, it just didnt come about that way ( refer to History Forum) .... the gnosis developed and then people saw similarities within the tarot that it could be 'patched' into / onto.

Thats why I said earlier it is via analogy and association.




I would suggest getting this first ... and THEN



It makes it further difficult as


That is, it makes it hard to explain because you are wanting another source - a book.


see above



Okay, that can be done ... see below *



But regardless of experience (and its claims) a thing cant be delivered that doesnt actually exist ( go back to my first comment - I mean I might be wrong, but I think the tarot was NOT made to be an expression of these forces and principles, well, it MAY have been , but if it was there is no historical trace .... it was patched in later).

Anyway, if you are serious start here: ... it might take a while to get down before you come to tarot ... but if you get this first, you will have a firm foundation;

first and 'easiest' (briefest that is); 'Hermes';

http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/emerald.htm

then 'Homer' ;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/catena1.htm

[Note ... these is just strands of the web , it starts much earlier than these 'first' developments ... but it is fairly well accepted as authoritative .... within the tradition. ]


As one soon sees , 'reality' or 'experience' is based on 3 principles of 'movement' :

Up/ down - vertical, forward back and left right - horizontal.
Light, Temperature and Moisture; from this comes Light and darkness (mercury) - hot or cold - Mars, moist or dry - Venus. It also represents primal drives and their resolutions within the human psyche and the basic requirements of life.

Three basic elements, relate to the Three elemental tarot cards. Why? Because there were 3 left over that sort of fitted after the main more obvious associations were matched.

Sorry, I CANT un-reverse-engineer it.

Unless I use kabbalah and say those cards are attributed through the 3 Hebrew Mother Letters ... but that is the snake biting its own tail IMO ... to follow that one through I have to recommend this: (but I dont know a good SINGLE book on it)

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/TBxcH-ITMjY/0.jpg


What did you mean by writing, "I would suggest getting this first ..."?

I can see what you are saying about how there is a certain arbitrary nature to the tarot system. I may find that I need to simply adopt a system and modify it as I learn more.

Thanks for the links. My PDF library is growing.