reconsidering a cathar connection

foolish

also, i saw an image that you posted, huck, at trionfi.com called the "oldest Fool". can you tell me more about this? i find it interesting that he appears to have a sort of worried look on his face (not something you would expect to see on a fool of folly), almost as if he is in disguise, rather than just in normal the clothing of a vagrant. in addition, we can see the emperor's shield, which has taken on a predominant place on the card. (it is the emblem of the visconti family, which was purchased from the german emperor. does this indicate some sort of connection between the two?) how do you explain the inclusion of that image?
 

Huck

... hm .. you mean one of these ...?

soci-jpg.jpg
 

foolish

yes, the one on the left.
 

Huck

http://trionfi.com/m/d00360

... definitely a Bohemian court deck ... .-)

so-called Hofämterspiel for Bohemian king Ladislaus posthumus ca. 1455, possibly partly based on the "oldest European court deck", which would mean, that the essence might be older than Tarot cards

Ladislas_the_Posthumous_002.jpg


Engagement picture with Madeleine of France
 

Rosanne

That foolish person or Narr (German) reminds me of Peter Waldo in disguise as traveling musician/peddler type beating his drum. Just what the Roman Empire might think of him too! The Poor of Lombardy- The Poor of Piedmont-The Poor of Lyon- a Waldensian. The only heretical sect that fits Tarot TdM in my humble opinion.

~Rosanne
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
That foolish person or Narr (German) reminds me of Peter Waldo in disguise as traveling musician/peddler type beating his drum. Just what the Roman Empire might think of him too! The Poor of Lombardy- The Poor of Piedmont-The Poor of Lyon- a Waldensian. The only heretical sect that fits Tarot TdM in my humble opinion.

~Rosanne

The TdM was very likely promoted by Louis XIV, between all these connected monarchs of Tarot History perhaps the most egocentric and dubious figure ... :) .. at least the most successful.

True, he loved card playing.

... .-) ... this vandalistic adventurer destroyed a lot of the nice castles in the beautiful Rhine valley ...

And his activities in matters of religion:

Louis himself saw the persistence of Protestantism as a disgraceful reminder of royal powerlessness. After all, the Edict was Henry IV's pragmatic concession to end the longstanding Wars of Religion. Moreover, since the 1555 Peace of Augsburg, the prevailing contemporary European principle to assure socio-political stability was "cuius regio, eius religio"— the religion of the ruler should be the religion of the realm.

Responding to petitions, Louis initially excluded Protestants from office, constrained the meeting of synods, closed churches outside Edict-stipulated areas, banned Protestant outdoor preachers, and prohibited domestic Protestant migration. He also disallowed Protestant-Catholic intermarriages if objections existed, encouraged missions to the Protestants and rewarded converts to Catholicism. Despite this discrimination, Protestants did not rebel. Instead there occurred a steady conversion of Protestants, especially amongst the noble elites.

However, in 1681, things changed. The principle of "cuius regio, euis religio" generally had also meant that subjects who refused to convert could emigrate. Louis banned emigration and effectively insisted all Protestants must be converted. Secondly, following René de Marillac and Louvois's proposal, he began quartering dragoons in Protestant homes. Although this was within his legal rights, the dragonnades inflicted on Protestants severe financial strain and atrocious abuse. Between 300 000 and 400 000 Huguenots converted as conversion entailed financial rewards and exemption from the dragonnades.

On 15 October 1685, citing the extensive conversion of Protestants which rendered privileges for the remainder redundant, Louis revoked the Edict of Nantes with that of Fontainebleau. Louis may have been seeking to placate the Catholic Church that chafed under his numerous restrictions, or he may have acted to regain international prestige after the defeat of the Turks without French aid, or even to end the last remaining division in French society dating to the Wars of Religion. Perhaps, he may have just been motivated by his coronation oath to eradicate heresy.

In any case, the Edict of Fontainebleau exiled pastors, demolished churches, instituted forced baptisms and banned Protestant groups. Defying royal decree, about 200 000 Huguenots (roughly 27% of the Protestant population, or 1% of the French population) fled France, taking with them their skills. Thus, some have found the Edict very injurious to France. However, others believe this an exaggeration. Although many left, most of France's preeminent Protestant businessmen and industrialists converted and remained. The reaction to the Revocation was mixed. French Catholic leaders applauded, but Protestants across Europe were horrified, and even Pope Innocent XI, still arguing with Louis over Gallicanism, criticised the violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France

It seems rather clear, that Louis had not much sense for religious tolerance for minorities.
 

foolish

aha! i'm not the only one who sees the Fool in disguise (wandering waldensian or cathar perfect - a very fine line). now, what do you make of the fact that the emperor's shield appears so predominantly on the card?
 

Bernice

foolish said:
aha! i'm not the only one who sees the Fool in disguise (wandering waldensian or cathar perfect - a very fine line). now, what do you make of the fact that the emperor's shield appears so predominantly on the card?
Small aside:What is a Cathar perfect? Do you mean 'prefect'?

Bee :)
 

Huck

foolish said:
aha! i'm not the only one who sees the Fool in disguise (wandering waldensian or cathar perfect - a very fine line). now, what do you make of the fact that the emperor's shield appears so predominantly on the card?

The 4 suits are 4 kingdoms, German Empire, Hungary, Bohemia, France. That's all about the shields, nothing mysterious.
This were the 4 interesting kingdoms from the perspective of Bohemia, where this deck was made.

... :) ... the relevant Fool is only the German Empire Fool

*****

Actually it seems, that the two male fools make the music, one woman dances and the other collects some money. This would be at least a logical idea of the scene.
The Bohemian Fool looks most cultivated from the 4, cause he stands at "cultivated ground". Perhaps this had some intention.
 

foolish

so the emperor's shield was a designation of one of the four "suits"?

what do you mean by "cultivated ground"?

a "perfect" was a cathar priest, or someone who had been administered the "consolamentum", their ritual which is a sort of baptism of the spirit. it was usually given to believers on their deathbeds because of the strict lifestyle it demanded (eating no meat, eggs or cheese, no contact with the opposite sex - women were also allowed to become perfect - never to take an oath, etc.) only those who chose to live an austere lifestyle of poverty would accept the consolamentum while alive. they were revered as spiritual leaders by the common folk, who were called "credentes."

the perfects were the main targets of the church during the albigensian crusade, although city leaders like raymond VI of toulouse were also targeted for their reluctance to stamp out heresy in their area. of course, by the time the inquisition was set up after the war ended, one could be imprisoned and lose their entire estate for simply being associated with a known cathar. even the graves of dead relatives who were accused of heresy were uncovered and the bodies dragged through the streets.