"Thou Shalt Not Make Graven Images"

firemaiden said:

Okay -- Doesn't the word "mind" already comprehend a limitation? A mind implies a being - and a being implies something separate from non-being...and therefore less than finite...

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Except for the mind of God - which is infinite - another paradox...but perhaps God is being and non-being, since he's all?

As for graven images - I think we can end up making idols out of everything, including our projection of God/dess. What we think of as the divine being is our own projection of that divine being - including the projections we find in the Bible. God, then, is saying - don't idolise anything, including me. Just be with me, and believe in me - but free yourself of projections.

In the Jewish Kabbalah, idolatry is anything that takes away our freedom.

In that, I can see how tarot images might becomes idols to some people; but then, I can also see how the Torah or the Christian Bible have become idols to some people.

The point is to free ourselves of all idolatry, so that our connection with the divine being(s) remain unfettered and flow directly.

It's interesting, too, the way that the Ten Statements (hebrew word dibrot) have been translated in European languages as the Ten Commandments. A Statement - "bad idea for you to steal/kill/worship idols" is a very different - and more freeing - thing than a Commandment.

firemaiden said:

Okay -- Doesn't the word "mind" already comprehend a limitation?

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Only if you think mind has to be limited. I.e. "in" a body. What if everything is just mind, and the all-mind is God?

A mind implies a being - and a being implies something separate from non-being...and therefore less than finite...

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(did you mean "less than infinite"?)

Non-being can't be. There is no non-being. So not not-being is not a limitation.

I'm not playing with words here. This is what I really think. And I also think it is the key to both mysticism and science.

In a literal translation, the verse is "Thou shalt not make any statue or picture in the form of anything that is in heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water beneath the earth" Exodus 20:4. I suppose that in many translations idol means simply image, or statue, from the latin idolum. So in that sense, Christian translations and interpretations, which do not forbid the making and displaying of statues would translate "idol" in the sense of "idol worship."

However, at least from my understanding, the verse forbids the display of anything that is alive, or that exists in nature. Similar, indeed, to the Islamic law on the subject. In Mosques and Arab building and palaces, you will never see the figure of an animal or person. Hence Arabian empires were renowned for their geometrical patterns and designs. I'm not sure what my point is, except that in the Old Testament, as in the New, Tarot may be seen as something that is forbidden.

Do you resolve this by saying that in any religion, your relations with your God are subject to interpratation?

closrapexa said:

Similar, indeed, to the Islamic law on the subject. In Mosques and Arab building and palaces, you will never see the figure of an animal or person. Hence Arabian empires were renowned for their geometrical patterns and designs. I'm not sure what my point is, except that in the Old Testament, as in the New, Tarot may be seen as something that is forbidden.

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I think that most things in our everyday world would be forbidden in that case.

It reminds me of two glass oil lamps that a Muslim woman I knew once gave to me. They were beautiful and still in the box. When I asked her what the problem was....she took one out and showed me the horses etched in the glass. Her husband, a religious nut, had a problem with that...and wanted them out of the house. So, I ended up with them LOL

Ross G Caldwell said:

Only if you think mind has to be limited. I.e. "in" a body. What if everything is just mind, and the all-mind is God?

(did you mean "less than infinite"?)

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Interesting. Yes I did mean "less than infinite"! LOL, thank you. Yes, I do think mind has to be limited in a body. Or at least an astral body, which still has some kind of edges.

I guess I have a problem with the concept of God being "mind" because to me "mind" implies an intelligence and a consciousness. And consciousness implies something to be conscious of, i.e. a body with edges to mind, some kind of "I am this, but I am not that" - What if God is all and nothing -- all of life, but also all of matter, and all of non-matter, without any edges.

Non-being can't be. There is no non-being. So not not-being is not a limitation.

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hahah. Okay... LOL. Maybe I meant "matter" versus" creatures.

closrapexa said:

Do you resolve this by saying that in any religion, your relations with your God are subject to interpretation?

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Not "God" per se, but rather the text will be subject to interpretation. As soon as somebody (Moses) served as scribe, and used a tool to write, and a human language to give form to the thoughts of "God", he was making an interpretation, and a representation.

Indigo Rose said:

Excellent statement, JMD.
An idol is something used to replace the one true God. Prayers, worship, and service are directed to the idol; instead of God. I agree with what others here have said...I do not worship the Tarot; I worship God. However, I use Tarot to ask questions of the Lord....but remembering it is from GOD which the answers come.(Proverbs 16:33)

Peace

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Indigo, I am right there with ya girl. How can a person not read the Tarot and believe the answers come from Someone or Something Higher than themself?
Myself, I was raised Pentecostal Christian and still subscribe to many of the beliefs I was raised with. Reading the Tarot is not an issue for me but it is for my family as they take the literal view of divination being evil. Of course if you ask me.. anyone that prays is then practicing divination. But thats my opinion.

firemaiden said:

I guess I have a problem with the concept of God being "mind" because to me "mind" implies an intelligence and a consciousness. And consciousness implies something to be conscious of, i.e. a body with edges to mind, some kind of "I am this, but I am not that" - What if God is all and nothing -- all of life, but also all of matter, and all of non-matter, without any edges.

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This is what I am getting at when I say that the infinite mind, to know itself, has to limit itself (its thoughts) in every possible way - i.e. give every thought "edges" to distinguish it from everything else. Thus there is an infinity of things, all distinct from each other.

But the real problem is thinking in dualistic terms, such as "mind and matter".

Consider that matter is mind, mind is matter. All of the universe is the mind of God, and everything in it is God's thought. The universe is the shape of God's mind. We are thoughts in God's mind. There is nothing outside of it, there is no beginning and end of it, and the mind of God is the only reality. God is mind, God is consciousness. Thus the universe is consciousness - infinite consciousness, which can only be called God.

There is not a God outside of the Universe, thinking these things; these things ARE the mind of God. Literally. That is the answer to the apparent problem of dualism in metaphysics. There is no reality outside of God. Or, there is no reality outside of infinite consciousness.

Hmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmm. Okay well in that case, "mind of God" and "God" would be the same thing no?

Or is there another part of God that is not "mind"?

Perhaps the English word "mind" is just our sorry translation of something richer; the Russian "dukha" means all at once spirit, heart, mind, breath, air, ghost, smell...

All this leads me to related question. If we put aside for one minute the abstract parodoxes of monotheism, and return again to the pre-monotheistic pantheist universe which many AT'ers embrace -- where there is more than one spirit floating around and jumping in and out of bodies, do these spirits have edges???

firemaiden said:

Perhaps the English word "mind" is just our sorry translation of something richer; the Russian "dukha" means all at once spirit, heart, mind, breath, air, ghost, smell...

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I like the Occitan word "cor", at least in its medieval meaning - heart, mind and body...