Can we talk about the bastons a little?

I'm working my way through the minors.

I have studied the numbers and written about what they mean to me and I have studied the suits, particularly from an elemental perspective, and I am beginning to put the two things together to come up with my own meanings for each of the minors.

I'm getting on well with swords, coins and cups, but struggling with the batons.

The Ace de Bastons - a firey number in a firey element, do you just end up with a raging inferno?

The 2 of Batons, I see arguments and discontent. I am struggling to see how a peacful watery number that seeks to find balance can be even remotly confortable within a firey element that calls for action. Wouldn't the 2 just get consumed by flames, or the flames be put out altogether?

And so it goes on. I don't seem to be finding any baton minors that have positive meanings!

So I pause to wonder why, and I turn to my Marseille friends to ask for insight about the element of fire and the suit of bastons before I go any further!

I should mention that I have a terror of fire that is of phobic proportions! I won't go outside the door on bonfire night (an english holiday where we have fireworks and bonfires), if there is fire on the television I run screaming from the room! I won't even light candles. This didn't effect my understanding of the minors in other decks, because I relied heavily on the pictures. But as I work with elements and numbers as well as pictures, my fear is making things difficult!

Can you help me to see how fire might react positivly with the numbers?

Oh, CP, I like Batons a lot. They seem to carry such vitality! It’s true that I seldom associate them with actual fire, when I see them I tend to think of fire as life force, like blood running through our veins. Green blood, the blood of nature, or a spiritualized blood, that is. I once wrote a few lines about the suit in another thread (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7703&perpage=10&pagenumber=1): I would say that the European model, and the symbolic reference, of this wands is to be found in the Wildman, or the Green Man, and incredibly obscure and complex figure that refers to ancient rites of male initiation, to popular and pre-Christian religion, to the primal nature of man. The Wild Man is linked to the image of the Green Knight, thus becoming a sort of knight who uses a “green spade” (a club) instead of a metal blade… This figure is therefore balancing between its savage nature, and the ideal of redemption to which refers the colour green, the relation to chivalry, etc. The “club” appears all over in Western art, usually as a pruned branch or a dead tree, these being the most significant images. The pruned branch is mostly used in heraldry, referring to a lineage that has been kept pure and strong, and to the idea that “in spring” the most vigorous buds will blossom from it. The dead tree is obviously the tree of the cross, a symbol of Christ Himself, only apparently dead, but about to become green when the proper time arrives.”

Besides this, I see Batons as building elements. You join them together to build something – a house, a bridge, a ladder… Batons would them represent situations you are creating, for instance. And also obstacles, of course! The tree you climb to have a broader view or to protect yourself from something, and the tree that falls on the path you walk, forcing you to stop or make a detour. The house that is your shelter, but also your prison. The club you pick for protection or as an instrument, and the one that will hit you on the head.

Anyway, they belong to nature. Cups don’t, deniers don’t, and swords don’t! And I like nature.

Silvia

As usual, Silvia saves the day for us.

But I will dare to add some words of my own.

First of all, before even thinking of the elemental assocation, I think you should think about what Batons are. What different roles and functions Batons can play. It is useful to look at the four Court Cards to see how different the batons look and to what use they can be put.

Once you've thought about Batons (and you can go and have a peep at the Majors to see where else there one finds Batons and things to do with Batons), then I suggest you go on to the Elemental assocation. (This is just a suggestion, but if I didn't believe it were a good suggestion, I wouldn't be giving it here).

Then you need to think about Fire. What does Fire need in order to get ignited and to stay lit. If it is burning too strongly, what does it need to lessen its strength? Sometimes it is even necesassary to put it out completely.

You must not forget that : Fire without Air cannot survive; Fire with Water cannot survive; Fire with Earth - well, here this is a funny one - because it needs some kind of earth element to use as its burning material.... but Fire can also be extinguished by earth!

It's not a very INDEPENDENT element.

Remember what Hadar says? That one has to get into the mind-set of the people of the Middle Ages to understand the Tarot? So what would fire have represent to them?

On the positive side: when it collaborates harmoniously with other elements it can: warm us through the winter months; cook our meals; melt our metals needed for our daily living; even help forge the mighty swords that the Cavalier d'Epées needs to take to battle to fight for Justice and for his King.

On the negative side: it can burn down whole villages, whole forests, all our crops and our livestock.

So never forget when you are reading the Tarot... unless you are doing a one-card reading only... that the cards surrounding the Batons card will give you a lot of clues as to where its strengths and weaknesses lie.

Now you wanted some positive things about the Batons, so here goes:


One of Batons: It's like the torch that lights the way through the dark forest.

Two of Batons: The passive gentle Two doesn't like the Fire element. So a strategic retreat would be advisable in order to take stock of the situation.

Three of Batons: Threes are very outgoing and energetic, right? So together with the Fire element, they can really paint the town red.

Four of Batons: There's not much that can destabilise a Four. The tricky thing here would be to make sure that one is not being OVER optimistic and due to that, one is perhaps overlooking some important details in our hurry to achieve success.

If you like, I can go on. But perhaps you would like to ponder first. I hope I have provided some inspiration for you to get out of your awkward situation.

As to your fear of fire... don't forget that it cooks your food, warms you in the winter months, and melts the iron and helps to forge the Sword. It also helps to make the horse-shoes that all the Chevaliers' horses need.....

<---- these are the smiles on my face as I read your posts Silvia and Diana, thank you!

There is so much to think about, and I want to go and do some thinking before I attempt to reply properly.

But in the meantime, thank you!

I'm smiling too

Me, too!

Let me just say one more thing, now about the 2 de Batons, ok?

This is a card I like a lot. I got it once, when I was beginning to study the Tarot “by myself” (throwing books away, I mean), and it was the first card that spoke to me. In that particular reading, what struck me was the X those two wands draw – and it meant, “Yes, right on the spot, go on, you just hit it. It’s here, it’s this way.” See what I mean?

So, to me, two wands crossed can represent:

- That cross we use to see on treasure maps, meaning, “this is the right spot, the treasure is here”. A point of departure. A promise of arrival. The beginning of a promising project.

- The wands that the “castle” guardians cross before us, to keep us from entering. An obstacle; a closed door; a sign of danger.

- The symbol of light, which is exactly an X.

All those basic meanings and their variations are linked to La Papesse, of course. And it is not hard to see how.

I think this is a very important thread. Maybe we could do this to all minors in Marseilles?

Silvia

All the minors!! That would be fantastic!

edited to add: I'm just about to go out to my French class. I am planning to spend this evening delving into the world of bastons with a glass or two of wine (French wine, of course!)

Two of Batons

Like smleite, I love this card. In fact I love the whole suit of Batons in my Fournier. It has taken me some time to move away from seeing the suit of Batons in the Marseilles as meaning Fire. My limited knowledge of Tarot history suggests that elemental associations are only one of many that can be made to the various suits.

I like the association of Batons with clubs or staves the best, instead of Wands. In mediaeval Europe Batons may well have signified the peasant class. Clubs or staves would probably have been of wood and in fact the Ace of Batons looks like a wooden club with the sap of life coursing through it. Wood is such a natural material. It grows in beautiful forests. It was essential for the survival of early man because it was the substance from which he first made fire. Do you think this is where the association with fire began? I wonder.

I love the 20th century association of Batons (Wands in RWS) with intuition and whilst I can see the connection of intuition with fire I can also see it with wood and batons. You just have to hold wood in your hands or walk into a forest to feel this.

Also like smleite, I don’t have any trouble with the two of Batons. The cross is the one point, the centre of everything, and can pinpoint the unity of God reflected in the centre . Men and women enact this unity by joining with each other, thus creating new life. In happiness and adversity two is always better that one. Two is the bringing together of opposites: the beginning and the end, the light and the dark, life and death, earth and sky, sea and shore. It is a beautiful number, one which generates much energy. I don't really see two as a passive number.

If you look at Two of Batons four flowers grow from the centre, two from either side and three balance above and below. The mingling of two creates three and so it continues.

I'm going to rate this thread with lots of stars. This kind of brainstorming is really good.

I love Silvia's reference to nature. Its raw and has potential growth. There are so many things (already mentioned) which can be related to the batons but one that I came across the other day was the walking stick which of course offers support.

Diana makes a really good point about the Court cards in the batons. There was a really good thread about them and how the baton began unrefined in the Page and becomes more refined as we progress to the King.

When looking at the two bastons, I often see a 'coming together'. The flowers look like they are going to join in the middle and make the third baton. So a plan is not formed but is 'forming'. Fits with the two as well: union, duality even choices.

Once we have sparked the excitement or creation in the ace, it needs fuel (leaves) to create the energy needed to continue.

It is also wise to remember that whilst fire may light the way it can also destroy so needs to be controlled.

~