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Marseilles Seekers Thread (Second Exercise)

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Marseilles Seekers Thread (Second Exercise)


Hello All,

Our second exercise is about paying attention. It will consist on looking at three cards together and answer the following questions:

What did you notice?

What did you hear?

What did you admire?

What astonished you?

What would you like to see again?

What was most tender?

What was most wonderful?

What did you think was happening?

The first question "What did you notice?" is the place where you can write down all the eye rhymes you see in your cards. The rest of the questions intend for you to renew your attention once you have ran out of eye rhymes, so you can keep looking at the cards for more things to notice.


As an example, I got Le Bateleur, Lempereur, La Maison Dieu

Here are my answers:


What did you notice?

I notice two people who refuse to look at each other in the eye, and I notice how they end up holding onto the same thing (the ground) after the tower collapses. I notice the cards telling me: "sometimes it is a good thing that bad things happen". I notice how we have a stand-up-sit-down-stand-up rhythm. Le Bataleur stands, Lempereur sits, the tower in La Maison Dieu stands again. But I also notice how both Le Bateleur and Lempereur have their hats on, while the tower in La Maison Dieu is loosing it. I notice how Le Bateleur's 'wand' rhymes with Lempereur's scepter, and the scepter rhymes with the tower in La Maison Dieu, reminding us that sleight of hand, ruling, and building a house can all be tuned into a spiritual exercise. I also notice how Le Bateleur's 'wand' is as broken as the building we see in La Maison Dieu. Only Lempereur's scepter remains whole. I notice how Le Bateleur's right hand rhymes with Lempereur's right hand, but while Le Bateleur finds security in holding onto a coin, Lempeur knows that he will be safer by holding onto his pants. Their hands also rhyme with the hands of these two characters we see in La Maison Dieu. We can see how the hands in these three cards conform a falling rhyme: coin, belt, ground. Perhaps our two characters need a cataclysm to understand that the soils in the ultimate safe net. I notice Le Bateleur looking toward the past, while Lempereur looks toward the future, or toward La Maison Dieu, as if he is the only one among them both who can foresee the impending catastrophe.

What did you hear?

I hear the silence of Le Bateleur and Lempereor, who prefer to let the voice of thunder speak in La Maison Dieu than using their own voices.

What did you admire?

I admire the calmness of Lempereur, who will let Le Bateleur come around by himself, even when he can see the tower is collapsing not too far away.

What astonished you?

The way power gets progressively reformulated in the sequence. Three kinds of magic are been shown there: personal, social and universal. Le Bateleur trusts in the power of his sleights. Sleight of hand suggests the power one has over oneself. Lempereur trusts the power of his scepter, a symbol suggesting the power a man has over his fellow men. Finally, that flame in La Maison Dieu sprouts like a little flower. Having it reaching the sun suggest it's trust in the power of nature. Nature may very well have been the first religion, and its creatures and events the perfect followers, for no animal wonders if what it perceives is reality or illusion, the rain does not second guess itself.


What would you like to see again?

I would like to see again that moment in which Le Bateleur lost his precious coin among the many ones falling from the sky in La Maison Dieu. That moment in which he understood that his little truth was as valuable as many other little truths - and equally tiny. I would also like to see that moment in which Lempeur understood that Le Bateleur can only learn that lesson for himself, although that doesn't mean he will learn it alone. Hail is coming.


What was most tender?

That flower of fire that comes from within the tower with is fleshy fire calling for his dad.

What was most wonderful?

If these two pay attention, both of them will get to learn their half of the same lesson.

What did you think was happening?

A young person feels ripe and ready, but no one comes to harvest her. She is only seeing the small picture. In her, depression takes the form of resentment. An older person can see the whole picture: "the fact that you feel ready doesn't means the world is ready for you". But the old person would talk and the young person would listen. That won't be a problem. What cannot be expressed in words will be expressed in actions when they discover together that opinions are made of clay, and that no matter how much fire we give to them, they will crash as soon as we fall down. Sometimes two people need to have the ground lifted from under their feet to find a common ground.


Have fun!

Additionally I have posted a new essay on the Eye Rhyme section of my site.

I also set a blog where you can find the previous essays. The link is on my site.

Any comment/question on the new essay is more than welcome.

I am looking forward to your answers!

Best,

EE
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Hi E,
I notice you get lots of trumps.
Should we work with just the Trumps? Are you working with just the Trumps? Or are you playing with a full deck???
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To be honest I didn’t even noticed it.

The three cards for this week on my site are pips. :-)

EE
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I have never heard of eye rhymes before this exercise, so to me this whole idea is brand new. Yesterday I discussed a reading I had done with Scion, using another deck, and he very naturally started looking at the eye rhymes, and I was not only amazed but enchanted by his comments. The eye rhyme technique is something that anyone can learn and I think you take your reading to another level. You haven't learned anything about iconography, you haven't digested the translation of life in medieval times and tried to connect it to modern life....you have just looked at the poetry and relationship between the symbols. Astonishingly, you now look for symbols in a new way, at least I have.

Heretofore I have not thought of the (for example) arms of the characters as symbol...so I have been missing out. In your Eye Rhyme essay you speak about the healing of the stab wound, and as I look at it, it is so obvious....I suddenly lost some fear of the pips just by examining that sequence and hearing you discuss the pips.

The simplicity of the process is what makes it meaningful in a new way for me. It is so obvious that the Valet has removed the sword from the weave and now the new image is healing...that is so beautiful and there was no fanfare or waiting to be slain by some enormous spiritual understanding. Now that is not to say that somehow you had a divine moment of understanding...but I see that your system is already really really useful for me.

I have to do the exercise yet, but I do feel more prepared than ever to look at the Marseille and feel able to decipher what I am seeing.
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My cards:
X Coupes
Temperence
Reyne De Coupe


Quote:
Originally Posted by EnriqueEnriquez
Our second exercise is about paying attention. It will consist on looking at three cards together and answer the following questions:

What did you notice?
The flower in the top cup moves to the head of Temperance and then moves to the crown of the Reyne De Coupe.
Later the top cup becomes the canopy over the head of the Reyne.
In Temperance we see the angel stands, she is actively working, but then we see her sitting, holding the cup, the things she has collected, safely and securely in her hand.
Bothe female figures keep looking back at the X Cups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What did you hear?
I could hear the water being poured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What did you admire?
The wings on the angel of Temperance. Her focus is beautiful. I love the Temperance angel, she is eager to create, eager to show what she can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What astonished you?
That I still have some trouble deciding what the rhymes mean!!!
I think I see the flowering of an idea in the mind of the Reyne. The flower symbol moving from cup to angel to Reyne, seems to say, the flowering of this idea is founded in love, divinely blessed, and offered up to you to be acted upon...but the Reyne sits down. As if she isn't ready to move on it....she is somehow unable to carry forward the idea into fruition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What would you like to see again?
I would like to see the last card be the action card! I also notice that Temperance's eyes are all white, and the Reyne's eyes have the black pupil, so there is something about vision occurring here as well. And they both look back to the X of cups...I want to see what they see, at least understand what they see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What was most tender?
The expression on the Reyne's face seems to tug at me. She sits under the canopy, and I think there is a hesitation to move on her idea, to use her treasure so safely housed in that cup. She can't stop thinking about how it all started....even tho she has seen what Temperance has shown her...she hesitates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What was most wonderful?
I loved that there were cups in every card...that the cup theme played across the cards and that I saw the rhyme. I don't feel I did it justice, that there was enough understanding of the message for me. But it was wonderful to see that theme carry through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EE
What did you think was happening?
I almost feel that we should start with that last card. The Reyne. The sequence seems to start with the X Cups but then when we get to the Reyne, it goes back again, it loops back. So she has this seed, this idea, and she is shown a little of what she can do with it, that it will transform her life, but she somehow cannot accept it, and she looks back at the X again, to see to make sure that is really seeing the gift, that she really has the seed-Even though the seed is right there in her hand. She cannot seem to believe that she has what she needs.
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Noblet TdM: World - Papesse - Star

What did you notice?
World & Star have long blonde hair; Papesse has a covered head. World & Star are naked, Papesse wears many clothes. Actually, while World is naked, she does sport a red cloak, like Papesse's. Maybe we should count her as semi-nude, with her belt of laurel leaves. . .

All the women have white hands. All the cards gaze to the left, the past. Of course, they are all women, these main figures. They start small in World, magnify to Papesse, and then go to medium size in Star. Also 1 stands, 1 sits, 1 kneels - a falling rhyme.

The World has a green bottom on which the animals repose, Papesse's throne seems to be also on green, Star is kneeling on the green, altho' the water flows towards Papesse. Star & Papesse have bent elbows, World has open arms.

What did you hear?

Star's flowing brook.

What did you admire?

I like the way World dances.

What astonished you?

How comfortable Star is being naked under her celestial display. Why Papesse doesn't ditch her robes - in that group, it's like wearing a burka on a nude beach.

What would you like to see again?

Whatever all these beauties are staring at.

What was most tender?
The look on Star's face.

What was most wonderful?
The sly smile on World's lion - he looks back at Papesse like he knows a naughty secret about her.

What did you think was happening?

Something's going down on the left that's worth everybody's attention. Someone's entire energies remain stuck towards the past, there's nothing looking out at the present or forward to the future.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
I have never heard of eye rhymes before this exercise, so to me this whole idea is brand new.

I have to do the exercise yet, but I do feel more prepared than ever to look at the Marseille and feel able to decipher what I am seeing.
Satori,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to read your post.

The 'eye rhymes' notion comes from poetry. This is from Wikipedia: "Eye rhyme, also called visual rhyme and sight rhyme, is a similarity in spelling between words that are pronounced differently and hence, not an auditory rhyme. An example is the pair slaughter and laughter". I understood how the term applied to the tarot by looking one day at Temperance and Le Bateleur while researching about the language of the birds. The notion that two words with a similar sound can be exchanged to create a play of words, this is, the idea of two words sharing a similar shape can be used interchangeably for amusement or communicative purposes, lead me to think that if the tarot's shape isn't auditive but visual many images have a similar "sound" that can be appreciated at plain sight. They are rhymes for the eye. I saw that for the first time in Temperance and Le Bateleur, in the form their posture, arms, heads, hats, etc, rhyme. Then I read Luc Bigé's "Petit dictionnaire en langue des Oiseaux: Prénoms, Pathologies et Quelques Autres", where he talks about looking at letters to find analogies (The letter A is a person walking with his legs wide open, the letter B is a pregnant woman). Bigé proposes a list of meanings for each letter and several words. Although they were interesting, I found the idea limited. We can only speculate about how the language of the birds really functioned, so, I decided to establish a working concept for language of the birds (not definitive, not closed to revision) based on the idea of privileging shape over meaning that give us a language of the birds functioning by detecting similar shapes in the letters of a word, a sentence, or in the images of a sequence of cards as a way to activate new meaning in them.

As I wrote in the article about language of the birds that is on my site, I have seen two main descriptions for this language: verbal puns, and visual puns. Interestingly, in his book "A Poet's Guide to Poetry" Mary Kinzie proposes a 'timeline' for poetic tropos, this is, a scale of rhetoric devices, in which she situates Literal Symbols and one extreme and verbal puns at the other one. Literal Symbols are those symbols who can represent something else without stop being themselves, all at once. The images from a Lenormand deck are perfect examples of this. We see a key, and that key may represent 'a solution' or 'a way out', but it never stops being a key. Clouds are concerns and clouds at once, this is, the symbolic meaning never takes totally over the image. I propose that tarot cards work as Literal Symbols. We can see a wound in the 8 of Batons, or we can see our mother in Justice, without these cards stop being what they are. Justice is Justice, who today happens to look like my mother, but the idea of 'mother' never takes over completely. Kinzie suggest this would be the simplest, more direct form of poetic representation, while a verbal pun will be conceptual in nature, and therefore the most abstract form of poetic representation. I find intriguing to think that, perhaps, the language of the birds could operate in both ends of the spectrum, but this is just my own speculation.

Another think I feel important to mention is that the purpose of looking at the cards in this way is to get visions. We see things that weren't there before. Revelations. Looking at the tarot in this way is about taking a detour to find a straight answer. Here is a quote from my lecture notes:

"There is a verse from medieval times, attributed to Nicholas de Lyra, which accounts for the four levels in which a text could be interpreted: "Littera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, Moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia", this is: "The letter teaches the actions, the allegory teaches what you believe, the moral teaches you how you act, and the anagogy teaches where you are going." As a comment from Medieval Christian Europe, these four levels of interpretation must be acknowledged in Tarot. For the purpose of this lecture we will focus on the last level, the anagogical, as the one which "teaches you where you are going."

Anagogical comes from Anagoge, this is: "The mystical interpretation of a text beyond the literal, allegorical or moral sense. " Anagoge stands for that moment when the invisible is declared by means of a visible fact. In Tarot's case we can see how looking at the cards as tangible events prompts in us a revelation. It is by means of that revelation that our possibilities as human beings become clear. I suggest that such epiphany is a cognitive process which happens by means of our analogical thinking, and it is under that hypothesis that my understanding of Tarot evolves."

This process is the opposite of a recipe in which we say to a client: “well, you got two pounds of coins, one of swords, no cups. Forget about finding a boyfriend, but at least you will be rich, this is, if you can bear all the arguing.”

Best,

EE
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A few pointers...


Before I start giving feedback on your exercises I would like to give you a few pointers.

- We don't know what a single card means, nor do we need to worry about that. Next week we will talk about my suspicion of what does each card elicits, but that will always be a provisional idea, useless in the context of a reading.


- We can only understand a card by contrasting it with the other ones in a sequence.

- Trumps, pips and court cards are all part of a whole. Trumps and court cards aren't more 'valuable' than pips, but they may provide focus to our narrative since they depict human characters.

- The cards of a sequence don't depict separate events. We read the whole sequence as one single sentence/idea. As a sequence/storyline we understand the cards going from past-left to future-right, but it is all part of one single motion.

- As a consequence of the previous points, we don't base our first glance on the card's attributes, suits, or numerological values of the pips.

- First we look for a general rhythm: raising, falling, constant. Then we look for rhymes.

- The only thing relevant in a single card is what rhymes with other cards. Rhymes define the active attributes of each card in a given sequence. We ignore the passive attributes.

That's it.


Personally I prefer to look at three cards, four maximum (this is an idea I have seen expressed by Paul Marteau, Jodorowsky, Tchalai Unger, Italo Calvino and Philippe Camoin: if the character in a card is looking outside of the spread, I place a new card in front of him/her to know what she/he is looking at and to close the spread.). More cards than that and I start feeling confused. I don't work with spreads because, as I pointed out before, there is no intrinsic meaning in each specific card, nor in its position.


Best,

EE
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exercise 2


Roy de couppes/ 4 swords /Roy despee
(half french/ half english...only because I don't know french much, and what each suit equals)

What did you notice?
First I notice the two characters. They are both holding something in their hand and staring off to the right. The roy de couppes is holding an elongated cup which rhymes with the sword that the roy despee is holding. The placement of both of their hands is the same, except the roy despee is also holding a sharp stick in his other hand. The vertical positioning flower in the center of the four swords also reminds me of the objects in both roy's hands. The roy de couppes looks through the hole in the middle of the four and sees the roy despee who seems to be looking off into space. The roy de couppes also looks older then the roy despee.

What did you hear?
I hear silence and maybe the rustling of both characters clothes and feet.

What did you admire?
I admire how the roy de couppes is looking at the roy despee imitate him, and yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't go and correct the roy despee or comment on his lack of experience.

What astonished you?
How still both characters are, as if they are resting before something begins.

What would you like to see again?
I would like to see the moment when the roy despee took up his sword and sat down in this position imitating the roy de couppes and the moment that the roy de couppes noticed that the roy despee is trying to be like him.

What was most tender?
The flower in the center of the four which seems to just float in the air.

What was most wonderful?
That the roy de couppes is watching over the roy despee and making sure that he doesn't hurt himself with his sword.

What did you think was happening?
The roy de couppes is noticing how his son, roy despee is growing up and beginning to mimic his father. The son is inexperienced and not sure what he is doing. Instead of judging and pestering his son the father looks from a distance, lovingly and acceptingly that his growing up. The father is very proud of his son.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
X Coupes
Temperence
Reyne De Coupe
I always love when the cards we get are so consistent, so clearly related!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
The flower in the top cup moves to the head of Temperance and then moves to the crown of the Reyne De Coupe.
Later the top cup becomes the canopy over the head of the Reyne.
In Temperance we see the angel stands, she is actively working, but then we see her sitting, holding the cup, the things she has collected, safely and securely in her hand.
Bothe female figures keep looking back at the X Cups.
This is excellent!

I would like to suggest that we have two big cups, one on the X of cups, the other one in the Queen of cups, and temperance is borrowing both to work with them.

At the same time, the upper cup on the X of cups is inactive. Temperance seem to be charging it, so the Queen can hold it. The X of cups shows and empty cup while the Queen is holding a full cup. Temperance did that! :-)

On your Camoin deck, both Temperance and the Queen of Cups have a yellow base, a yellow border, acting as frontier between the figure and th ground.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
I could hear the water being poured.
Nice. There is a clear “cups” theme here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
The wings on the angel of Temperance. Her focus is beautiful. I love the Temperance angel, she is eager to create, eager to show what she can do.
An additional detail here is that Temperance, being in the middle, seems to catalyze the sequence’s action. This position makes his motions even more active. Context defines meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
That I still have some trouble deciding what the rhymes mean!!!
Don’t concern yourself about messages yet. Now we are just getting used to look for eye rhymes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
I think I see the flowering of an idea in the mind of the Reyne. The flower symbol moving from cup to angel to Reyne, seems to say, the flowering of this idea is founded in love, divinely blessed, and offered up to you to be acted upon...but the Reyne sits down. As if she isn't ready to move on it....she is somehow unable to carry forward the idea into fruition.
You know, the fact that the Queen is looking towards the past makes me thing the cup is a memento from a past event. Holding it connect her to her past. I wonder if the cup is really full, or if she insist on holding onto an empty cup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
I would like to see the last card be the action card! I also notice that Temperance's eyes are all white, and the Reyne's eyes have the black pupil, so there is something about vision occurring here as well. And they both look back to the X of cups...I want to see what they see, at least understand what they see.
The eye’s eye-rhyme is great! Well done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
The expression on the Reyne's face seems to tug at me. She sits under the canopy, and I think there is a hesitation to move on her idea, to use her treasure so safely housed in that cup. She can't stop thinking about how it all started....even tho she has seen what Temperance has shown her...she hesitates.
Excellent.

I see someone mourning. There was a burial (X of cups), and although some time has happened (Temperance), the widow can’t move on. But not having a question, that is just one of the many possible conjectures. A conjecture that may not be ‘right’ in literal terms but will be right in analogical terms.

If you notice, both your description and mine share the same imprint, th same essence. This is what I mean when I say that the experience of art is not openly subjective, but it allow us to experience a very precise set of feelings in our own subjective way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
I loved that there were cups in every card...that the cup theme played across the cards and that I saw the rhyme. I don't feel I did it justice, that there was enough understanding of the message for me. But it was wonderful to see that theme carry through.
Yes, this is a beautiful sequence. The theme is so clear! Again, don’t worry about meaning yet. We will start working with definitive questions next week, but now we are just getting acquainted to the language. That said, in real life practice I personally think that looking at the cards without a question, or a topic in mind is mostly useless. I can understand how, sometimes, this is what a person needs. But I feel that is the difference between a hooker and a priest. You go to a priest if you have something specific to talk about. You can’t tell “do your think” to a priest. Readings are closer to a priest than to a hooker. :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satori
I almost feel that we should start with that last card. The Reyne. The sequence seems to start with the X Cups but then when we get to the Reyne, it goes back again, it loops back. So she has this seed, this idea, and she is shown a little of what she can do with it, that it will transform her life, but she somehow cannot accept it, and she looks back at the X again, to see to make sure that is really seeing the gift, that she really has the seed-Even though the seed is right there in her hand. She cannot seem to believe that she has what she needs.
This is a great observation. We tend to read from left to right, but sometimes you will see ow the sequence must be read from right to left, or from the center outwards. Follow the visual patterns and you will be OK. As I mentioned somewhere else, we will tend to arrange the narrative around the human characters we find, not around the lifeless elements. This is natural. This not only will make sense to us, but to our clients/seekers.

Satori, you did great. Don’t beat yourself too hard for not being deeper. We are just beginning. You have your entire life to go further. :-)


Best,

EE
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