Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Live Tarot Readings Tarot Card Meanings Forum Archive

Guglielma / Manfreda

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Tarot History & Development


 
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 
Citizen
Guglielma / Manfreda




Report:
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...6-19254770_ITM

Source of picture:
http://www.iubilantes.it/archivio/in...l=73&idfondo=5
Top   #1
eugim  eugim is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 15 Feb 2008
Location: buenos aires,argentina
Posts: 509
eugim 
Citizen
Wink


Hello Huck...
First I want here to express my highest respect for you.
Your posts are one of the few here that sustain suppositions with historical facts.
One can be agree or not with you but always remeber to me the historical background.
Really I come strongly on TdM side,but as this come unduobtedly from I talins decks one can t deny these source as a fact it is.

1-Even if I think that after Tarocchi was brought to France the entirely deck was reworked,the source origin of TdM is widely different than the Italian.
France had a deep Romanesque Art which mixed Greek-Roman Culture with the local Gaul or best Celt as the survived Celtic Art showed.
2-I read many opinions about Manfreda even as far as she didn t lived.
3-Thus are you suggesting that there is a link to TdM LA PAPESSE ?
4-If you are agree,why in italians decks she has the book closed and on TdM opened (except the odd friend Vieville ? )
5-On barely all TdM decks she is looking to LE BATELEVR so not to the sequence cards ahead.
Thus I think a somewhat heretical depiction ... // Why ?

My best respect...

eugim
Top   #2
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 
Citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
3-Thus are you suggesting that there is a link to TdM LA PAPESSE ?
I assume, that you speak of Guglielma and Sister Manfreda ...

There is a bigger similarity of the Papessa (Bembo cards) and one of the pictures in the Arezzo Chapel, the virtue Fides, ...



... painted much earlier than the Papessa of Bembo (Giotto died 1337). So actually, somehow it's in Bembo times already general iconography, not necessarily indicating private or specific persons (the Stupiditas in the Arezzo chapel and the Fool in the Bembo cards ALSO show iconographical similarity - the feathers and the baton).



Well, the report states, that this picture of Guglielma was made ca. 1450. This is interesting, as it gives evidence, that the story was still of interest 150 years after it happened ... and around the time of Bembo.

Would be interesting to know the commissioner. Also it would be interesting to know the precise time of the work.

... :-) ... As far the TdM is concerned ... something, for which evidence exists since ca. 1650 (200 years later) and which appears at a rather different location ... it seems hopeless to assume a connection (in the mind of the painting artist) between Guglielma or Manfreda (or a representation of them in a lonesome mountain village) and the representation of the Papessa in this sort of deck. Likely this artist simply followed or variated other Tarot or Trionfi cards before him.


Ross is specialist for pictures with similarities to the Papessa. Perhaps he has a link to his collection.
Top   #3
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 
Citizen

Ross G Caldwell's Avatar

Barbara Newman wrote a paper about this recently - last year I think. She identifies the kneeling woman in the painting as Manfreda, and the man as Saramita, but I think her argument is bogus. I'll post more on it later.

This page also gives more images of Maddalena Albrici (Albrizzi). The legends state that her cousin Pietro Albrici set up the tomb and renovated the Church sometime after 1465.



http://www.iubilantes.it/archivio/fo...M.Albricci.JPG

The woman on the tomb and in the painting look like one another. The kneeling nun in the painting is wearing a black Augustinian habit (they still look like that).

I think the best explanation is that the figures show Guglielma (whose legend became popular in the middle of the 15th century in parts of northern Italy), blessing Maddalena, with her cousin Pietro, the presumed commissioner, behind.

Ross
Top   #4
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 
Citizen

Puzzles:


About Constance, Guglielma's mother

"Constance was the daughter of Bela III, king of Hungary. The family had many saintly connections. Constance’s brother, Andrew II, married Gertrude, a sister of St. Hedwig, duchess of Silesia; Andrew and Gertrude were the parents of St. Elizabeth. Constance herself was the mother of Agnes of Prague, a follower and supporter of Clare of Assisi.
Constance was the second wife of Premysl Otakar, king of Bohemia, whose first marriage with Adela/Adleta of Meissen was dissolved on the grounds of consanguinity, which she contested until her death. Constance and Otakar, married in 1199, had 9 children, including Wenceslas I, Otakar's successor, Premysl, marquis of Moravia, Anna, who married Henry II of Silesia (son of St. Hedwig), Blazena, known as Guglielma Boema, who settled in Milan and became famous for healing in a religious cult, and the youngest, Agnes of Prague, who founded a Franciscan house for women in Bohemia and corresponded with Clare of Assisi whose struggles with the papacy she supported."
http://epistolae.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/woman/85.html

... holy backgrounds with Hungarian context ...

*******

Antonia Pulci - sister-in-law to Luigi Pulci (involved in Minchiate-matters)
- wrote together with her husband Bernabo Pulci a religious play called "St. Guglielma" ca. 1486 ...

Here the private description of a reader:

----
"Antonia Pulci (whose work was translated by James Cook, the translator also responsible for this version of Petrarch and is available in a lovely volume: Florentine Drama for Convent and Festival: Seven Sacred Plays) was a fifteenth-century Italian writer who, after the death of her husband, founded an Augustinian order and lived out the rest of her life in the convent. The type of plays Pulci authored -- sacre rappresentazioni -- are short plays about religious subjects, and in Pulci's case are largely hagiographical (read: about saints) and deal with women and their concerns in society. These plays are convent dramas and as such are meant to be performed by women for women. So, something like 15th-century Lifetime TV, then.

St. Guglielma follows the life of -- wait for it -- St. Guglielma, the daughter of the King of England who, despite a desire to live a life of pious chastity, is married to the King of Hungary. Once married, Guglielma convinces the king to go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and take her with him, which he thinks is a swell idea in part, deciding to go on the pilgrimage but to leave Guglielma in Hungary to run the kingdom. Once the king is gone, his brother, who's pining for some hot Guglielma action, tries to seduce the queen but is shot down. Guglielma decides to keep it to herself so as not to cause an uproar at court, but this turns out to be a bad idea because as soon as the king returns the brother falsely accuses Guglielma of being a ho in her husband's absence. The king, kind, wise fellow that he is, has Guglielma imprisoned and sentenced to death, because, you know, why talk to your wife when you can just have her killed?

Exactly.

But Guglielma is saved when pity is taken upon her and the executioner sets her free and burns her clothes to make it look like she was killed. She's lost in the forest (or a wasteland, as the text calls it, so maybe not a forest after all) and it seems kind of Snow White-ish for a little while, but instead of finding the cottage of seven dwarves, she is met by Mary (mother of Jesus) who helps her, and later by two angels who also help her. She's given the gift of healing, and ends up at a convent where she sits at the gate, healing the sick. As luck would have it, the king's dastardly brother is stricken with leprosy, and the king takes him to this miraculous healer at the convent. She heals the brother, the king leaves his kingdom to the barons, and the three of them go to a little place in the aforementioned wasteland to live happily ever after. Because retiring to a wasteland is really the way to go.

So that's the story. It proves, unequivocally, that Guglielma was a lot nicer than I would've been in similar circumstances, since I probably would've let the brother die and then, if it were in my power to do so, put a pox on the king for having me needlessly sentenced to death. Of course, that's just one of the many reasons why I'll never be a candidate for canonization."
----------
http://www.litkicks.com/StGuglielma/

That does sound a little foreign, is this really the same Guglielma? Daughter of an English king, not a Bohemian ...

however ....
in the German Wikipedia

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmiten

...two legends for Guglielma (the heretic Saint) are noted:

--------
Legende 1

Der Mailänder Bernardino Corio erzählte 1503 ein Legende, dass um das Jahr 1300 eine ketzerische Frau namens Guglielma lebte, die so tat, als sei sie fromm und heilig. Sie lebte mit einem gewissen Andreas Saramita zusammen, und im Schutz einer vorgetäuschten Gutherzigkeit betrieben die beiden eine unterirdische "Synagoge", in welcher sie bei Nacht junge Mädchen, verheiratete Frauen und Witwen versammelten. Nach Guglielmas Willen trugen sie alle, als seien sie Priester, eine Tonsur auf ihrem Haupt. Zu diesen nächtlichen Zusammenkünften gesellten sich außerdem junge wie auch erwachsene Männer, die als Geistliche verkleidet waren. Frauen und Männer begannen ihre Versammlungen mit einem Gebet vor einem Altar. Danach schrien sie: "Vereinigen wir uns, vereinigen wir uns!" und verdunkelten den Raum. Daraufhin folgte eine sexuelle Orgie, die "heimliche Schändung", wie sich Corio ausdrückte.[3]

Legende 2

Der deutsche Dominikaner Johannes von Weißenburg (Wissembourg) kam zwischen 1300 und 1301 nach Mailand und trug im Jahr 1302 folgende Geschichte in die Annalen der Dominikaner von Colmar ein. In den Annali Colmariensi heißt es, dass im Jahr 1300 "eine überaus würdevolle und gleichermaßen beredte Jungfrau aus England nach Mailand kam, die von sich behauptete, der heilige Geist zu sein, der zur Erlösung der Frauen Fleisch angenommen habe. Und sie taufte die Frauen im Namen des Vaters, des Sohnes und in ihrem eigenen Namen. Nach ihrem Tod wurde sie nach Mailand gebracht und dort verbrannt."[4]

In beiden Legenden kommt Schwester Mayfreda überhaupt nicht vor. Luisa Muraro vermutet, dass sowohl die Mailänder Familie Visconti als auch die Dominikaner verschiedene Gründe hatten, die Rolle Mayfredas wegzulassen.
------------

... and in one of them Guglielma suddenly comes from England (not as a daughter of a king) - a legend, which was told already in 1302. The article notes, that Sister Manfreda isn't mentioned in the legends, and the writer has the suspicion, that neither the Visconti nor the inquisition had an interest to spread the story about a familiary relationship.

The article also mentions: "Im 16. Jahrhundert entdeckte ein Mönch der Kartäuser, Matteo Valerio in einem Kramerladen 34 beidseitig lateinisch beschriebene Pergamentblätter, die dort als Packpapier verwendet wurden und kaufte sofort alle auf. Es waren die Prozessakten des Notars Beltramus Salvagnius, die aber nicht vollständig erhalten sind. Die Prozessakten des zweiten Notars, Manfredo da Cera, sind bis heute nicht auffindbar (1788 verbrannte das Archiv in Mailand)."
... which means, that the related documents were found rather late in 16th century.

-----

http://www.catholic.org/saints/

A St. Guglielma is not known by this source, neither the Antonia-Pulci-version nor the heretical version.
Top   #5
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 
Citizen

Ross G Caldwell's Avatar

Yes, there are two legends. Newman discusses both.

The second was written in Ferrara in the 1420s, and bears very little relationship to the "true" Guglielma of the 1200s. Newman suggests a link between the earlier and later cults of St. Guglielma by noting the Galeazzo Visconti married an Este and moved to Ferrara in the 1320s (IIRC). She suggests the cult somehow stayed in Ferrara until the new legend was written.

The legend Maddalena Albrici knew was this Ferrarese legend, and the Church depicted scenes from that life. The painting you first posted is not from the legend, but it clearly shows Guglielma and Maddalena, not Manfreda.

If you can read the article (you posted the link - can you see the whole thing?), you'll see that Newman doesn't know enough about Tarot history or even alternative uses of the term "Popess" in the 15th century. She believes there are only two choices - either Pope Joan, or the Papessa Maifreda.

She does make some plausible suggestions otherwise though.

Galeazzo taking the Guglielma cult to Ferrara - plausible.
Matteo confiscating the Inquistion record and editing it - plausible.

Ross
Top   #6
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 
Citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
Yes, there are two legends. Newman discusses both.

The second was written in Ferrara in the 1420s, and bears very little relationship to the "true" Guglielma of the 1200s. Newman suggests a link between the earlier and later cults of St. Guglielma by noting the Galeazzo Visconti married an Este and moved to Ferrara in the 1320s (IIRC). She suggests the cult somehow stayed in Ferrara until the new legend was written.

The legend Maddalena Albrici knew was this Ferrarese legend, and the Church depicted scenes from that life. The painting you first posted is not from the legend, but it clearly shows Guglielma and Maddalena, not Manfreda.

If you can read the article (you posted the link - can you see the whole thing?), you'll see that Newman doesn't know enough about Tarot history or even alternative uses of the term "Popess" in the 15th century. She believes there are only two choices - either Pope Joan, or the Papessa Maifreda.

She does make some plausible suggestions otherwise though.

Galeazzo taking the Guglielma cult to Ferrara - plausible.
Matteo confiscating the Inquistion record and editing it - plausible.

Ross
No, I can't see the full article ...
Is the story of Antonia Pulci the Ferrarese version?

Changing the Bohemian princess to an anonymous English woman might have been wise to get no difficulties otherwise ...

There is a strange pope around this time, who gets difficulties with the French king ...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02662a.htm

... and the French king also showed interests to forge things (for instance the matters around the Templars).

Finally it turned out, that the France orientated John of Luxembourg married the Bohemian heiress. And the popes went to Avignon.

A "posthum declared heretical Bohemian princess" was of no use then.

Perhaps "high politic" took an influence upon the whole case. It seems, that around 1300 - time of the process in Milan - the current Bohemian king was a target for attack, cause he didn't behave, as the current pope wished that he should behave.

"In Hungary Chambert or Canrobert of Naples claimed the vacant crown as descendant of St. Stephen on the distaff side, and was supported by the pope in his quality of traditional overlord and protector of Hungary. The nobles, however, elected Andrew III, and on his early demise (1301) chose Ladislaus, son of Wenceslaus II of Bohemia. They paid no heed to the interdict of the papal legate, and the arbitration of Boniface was finally declined by the envoys of Wenceslaus. The latter had accepted from the Polish nobles the Crown of Poland, vacant owing to the banishment (1300) of Ladislaus I. The solemn warning of the pope and his protest against the violation of his right as overlord of Poland were unheeded by Wenceslaus, who soon, moreover, allied himself with Philip the Fair." - from Catholic Encyclopedia, same article

"In 1291 Przemysł II, High Duke of Poland, ceded the sovereign duchy of Krakow to Wenceslaus. Kraków was associated with the overlordship of Poland, but Przemysł held the other duchies and in 1295 was crowned King of Poland. After Przemysł's death in 1296 Wenceslaus became overlord of Poland and in 1300 was crowned King of Poland." - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenceslaus_II_of_Bohemia

Actually the attack against the sect started 1296 (an earlier investigation 1284 ended harmless) ...

("Die Guglielmiten (auch Vilemiten genannt) waren eine häretische Sekte in Mailand ab 1281. Die Inquisition ermahnte 1284 in einem ersten Prozess einige der Mitglieder. 1296 wurde erneut ermittelt und 1300 mehrere Sektenmitglieder in einem weiteren Prozess verurteilt." source: German Wikipedia)

... when Przemyl died and Wencelaus became overlord in Poland and the final act in the Milanese process happened 1300, when Wenceslaus became king in Poland.

So it looks, as if the whole matter around the Guglielma-sect was an act to put papal pressure on the current Bohemian-Polish king. It was easy to attack her instead of him, cause she was already dead and her followers were in the reach of the papal agents.

When the Pope was dead (1304) and the relevant Bohemian King also died (1305), the whole story was meaningless. As the pope generally got a bad name ... so one could forget about it. Best, that she wasn't a daughter of a Bohemian king, but an anonymous English woman. Currently the English didn't pay their papal taxes ... :-)
Top   #7
eugim  eugim is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 15 Feb 2008
Location: buenos aires,argentina
Posts: 509
eugim 
Citizen

a-Huck...
-Many thanks for repled to me.
1-Yes, Im wasd talking about Guglielma and Sister Manfreda.
So she " Duos habet et bene pendentes "

PS/ I can t find your post when youtalked about the Boiardo poem related to the posibity that at it s origin the cards were 14.
Please tell me which is.Thanks

b- Hello Ross...
You also are as Huck one of the very few respected.
Btw,wondeful post also.
1-If she is,why is looking toward LE BATELEVR instead the card sequence so toward II to V ?

My best,

eugim
Top   #8
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 
Citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
PS/ I can t find your post when youtalked about the Boiardo poem related to the posibity that at it s origin the cards were 14.
Please tell me which is.Thanks
I don't know, I've often talked about the "possibility that at its origin the cards were 14" ... Perhaps this helps you:

http://trionfi.com/0/f/

and the connected links to the left
Top   #9
eugim  eugim is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 15 Feb 2008
Location: buenos aires,argentina
Posts: 509
eugim 
Citizen
Thumbs up


Many too many thanks Huck !!!

(Okay it s a posibility ... )

I will read with enthusiasm )

eugim
Top   #10


 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Forum Archive
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

The Aeclectic Tarot Forum closed permanently on July 14th, 2017. The public threads remain online as a read-only archive and resource. More information on our decision can be found here. Thank you for being a part of our active community over the past seventeen years.

Copyright © 1996 - 2017 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.