The 3rd monk on V (pope) ?

[Yves Le Marseillais]

Bee

EDIT: Both the Dodal and the Payen Popes are NOT looking at any of the monks (As Eugim says). If someone has the Chosson, could they see where the Pope is looking?


Hello Bernice,

I did saw Chosson deck and pictuired it:

Pape is looking at right side of card: On horizontal direction.
So he do not look at other people of card.

Secondly, left side people on bottom has a sort of hand (colored in blue) on left side of his hat. But it could also be part of Pape throne.
Ambiguity so about this "hand".

Au revoir,

Yves

[Bernice]

Hello Yves,

Ah! so the Chosson has the same pattern for the Pape. But now the hand is on the left, but the Pape looks horizonally to the right as with the Dodal ..... and thank you Strange2, the Tarots of Bologna has this odd hand on the left of the card, plus another monk. Has the 'hat' become a monk in this deck I wonder?

Moonbow:
Yes I see that the Noblet Pope has no 'wandering' hand.
But I also notice that in the Noblet (flornoy), that the Page of Cups is rather odd, he carries a 'lid (?)' in one hand, yet the Cup has, what looks like, a strangely shaped 'egg-cosy' on top of the Cup.
Other decks show that the Cup is covered with the Pages' scarf - or some part of his clothing. So perhaps the Noblet also has some ambigueous bits...

I wonder if this similarity of differences could give us clues to how many basic patterns there were for these early decks. (maybe only 2/3 ?)

Bee

[Bernice]

Just found the Viéville Pope card (a wee bit fuzzy). Here there are two little persons both with hands belonging to themselves, and with hats on their backs.
The Pope is apparently blessing the one on the right side of the card. His eyes are looking downwards, but seem to go just beyond the right-side little person.... Anyone have a clearer image of this Viéville card?

Bee

[Abrac]

Originally Posted by Bernice

I've looked at several TdM (and cousins), I'm thinking that there isn't a 3rd person just beyond the right-side of the card. Looks to me like the 'arm' is a part of the kneeling mans' clothing, and the 'hand' belongs to him.

The art is somewhat stylized which makes it difficult to say for sure, but I believe you are correct in this case, i.e. the "arm" is actually his clothing. Sometimes this stylizing is taken to the extreme, as in this card. Instead of heads there are only disks with flowers on them.

[eugim]

Hello thinbuddha...
Here is the Dodal card as Flornoy done it.

http://letarot.com/jean-dodal/images...w/pape-web.jpg

- And then.
What is the that sort of "skin colour bult" at the left side of the monk ?

eugim

[thinbuddha]

I believe it is meant to be that monk's left arm.

[eugim]

So the left arm of the left hand shown ?

[Moonbow]

Originally Posted by Bernice

I wonder if this similarity of differences could give us clues to how many basic patterns there were for these early decks. (maybe only 2/3 ?)

Bee

This is what intrigues me too Bea. Most of us are more familiar with the TdM II pattern and that is precisely why I find the Noblet so intriguing... because its different, why?

As for the Valet of Cups, the covering on the cup still looks like a loose covering to me, even if its not part of the scarfe worn by him:

Flornoy's Valet of Cups:



As the Vieville has been mentioned I also attach Le Pape from that deck, so that we are all looking at the same page:

[Bernice]

Hello Moonbow

The thing that bothers me about the Valet of Cups is that the Cup is covered, but he also carries another lid/cover... (?). Why would that be?

Perhaps Huck or Ross would have some idea about the first/earliest 'patterns'. Am still thinking there were probably only 2/3..... Fascinates me...

Bee

Had a thought, could he be carrying his hat/cap-thing in the other hand.

[thinbuddha]

Originally Posted by eugim

So the left arm of the left hand shown ?

Yeah- that's what I think, anyway.

Originally Posted by Bernice

The thing that bothers me about the Valet of Cups is that the Cup is covered, but he also carries another lid/cover...

I haven't seen the original card, but the one with the Flornoy coloring makes me think that the cap is for his head, not a lid for the cup.