Is Tarot Pagan?

[Rosanne]

Very interesting posts FrogStone!

With a wry smile I often wonder if the choosing of the images of Tarot had as much thought put into it, as we do looking back. Maybe a lot of thought, maybe very little- who can tell at this distance?

I have been reading much on Fate, Chance, Destiny, Divine Providence and gambling for sometime now- which lead me to this thread posting. You have two distinct lines in the debate, that is evident from writings in the time we are discussing. There is the Christian view of Divine Providence and the Classic outlook of Fortuna, Fates and the Gods.

The replacement of willful divine agency by blind fortuna within Renaissance rhetoric is a motif that resonated well with the nascent scientific worldview. Here, blind fortuna finds her equivalent in the impersonal laws of the mechanized universe postulated by the likes of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Bacon, and Newton. Indebted to scholastic appropriations of Aristotelian traditions, the medieval reinvigoration of natural law approaches had already laid the groundwork for an understanding of the natural order as regulated by causal laws discoverable by deliberative reason. On two counts, however, received natural law interpretations were rejected by the early-modern scientific worldview. First, the teleological hermeneutic (final causality) of Christian-Aristotelianism ran contrary to emergent conceptualizations of the universe as governed by the law of cause and effect. Second, the corrective role accorded by the established paradigm to faith/doctrine in regulating the activities of rational deliberation was regarded as unnecessarily constrictive of scientific investigation (e.g., the treatment of Galileo Galilei).[Andrew Dawson University of Chester]

and...

Building upon Renaissance aspirations exemplified by the likes of Petrarch (e.g., The Remedies of Both Kinds of Fortune) and Alberti (On Religion), Pico’s Oration on the Dignity of Man (1486) encapsulates well humanist preoccupations with establishing humankind as the determinative center of a new cosmic order. Reappropriating, ad fontes, classical sources, and reworking received Christian and Jewish medieval traditions, Renaissance humanism articulates its ideology of self-mastery as a techne grounded in the cultivation of virtue and the acquisition of knowledge (Taylor: 115-42). Charged with the technological feat of molding itself into one worthy of a new found dignitas, Greek paideia and Latin studia humanitatis are remodeled as central components of a technology of the self, the objective of which is the formation of the omnicompetent uomo universale.

So once I had competently used a dictionary and thought about Tarot- I came to the 'wondering' is Tarot a reflection of the Classic source of Fate, Fortune,Destiny versus Divine Providence.
It looks to me although the Tdm is about Divine Providence- hence Christian, the idea of Tarot and and early card images is essentially non-Christian; it is not about Divine Providence, but Greek/Roman Fortuna. In other words
God is not in charge of the game of Tarot. The Gods of Fate are. It is not a story of Redemption, but one of 'Pagan' Fortuna. At least that is what I see when I look at the images.

ummm...Good Luck (Hellenistic)with your cards, I will Pray God provides you a win(Christian) - seems mutually incompatible to me somehow.
~Rosanne

[DoctorArcanus]

Originally Posted by FrogStone

We do know that playing cards did not originate in medieval europe. The cards that evolved into the tarot had origins and adaptations in China, India, and Islamic lands. Symbols of the suits, as well as images of deities and cultural history are found in those earlier 'foreign' decks. (For example - the traditional image of the Hindu Goddess Durga, fierce demon fighting warrior, upon her tiger (sometimes lion) is quite similar to the portrayal of strength seen in european decks). Why would we limit our historical search to medieval religious dramas? If the history of the cards and images of the tarot can be traced back to older examples in other cultures, why should we exclude the possibility that images have incorporated symbolic meaning from those cultures as well?

The history of Tarot images can often be traced back to older examples from other cultures. For instance, the Lion as a symbol of Strength, that appears in the Visconti-Sforza Hercules, refers to a classical demigod. Here is an image or Herakles and the Nemean lion dating to the 5th Century BC.

As another example, the Tiara (that in Bembo is an attribute of the Pope) is derived from an Assyrian symbol of authority. The word Tiara itself is of Persian origin. Here is an Assyrian King with his tiara (8th Century BC).

In my opinion, most of the people of the XV Century, as most of the people today, know that the lion is a strong animal, and interpret it a symbol of strength, without any knowledge of Durga. A minority will recognize Hercules in a man killing a lion with a club. The Bible was readily available in the XV Century, and in the book of Proverbs it speaks of "a lion, strongest among beasts, who retreats before nothing". I don't think the Bible was needed to interpret that image, but the presence of other virtues in the deck could be easily recognized as a Christian message (and many still recognize them as a moral message today).

The Tiara is a symbol of the power of the Popes, and maybe only an archeologist will think to its Assyrian origin when looking at the Tarot Pope.

Looking for the ancient origins of tarot symbols is something I find both fun and interesting. But, if we want to understand what tarot images meant in the XV century, it is important to remember which knowledge was available to people of the XV century. I am quite sure that the Bible was an important source of knowledge for people in the XV Century, while Durga was unknown in Europe at that time.

I think that the symbolic meaning of Durga, being unknown, could not be incorporated in the XV Century. But possibly it was incorporated before, and Herakles is somehow a derivation of Durga or related to her (I don't know enough about Hindu and Greek gods to say anything meaningful about their possible connections). The "power" symbolism of the Tiara was incorporated in Christian culture through the Byzantine empire.

We can also decide to incorporate the symbolism of Durga in our contemporary interpretation of Tarot, independently on any historical consideration. Of course, the original meaning of a symbol is not necessarily the most interesting interpretation.

Marco

[DoctorArcanus]

http://bivio.signum.sns.it/bvWorkPag...resetPageNav=1

Donna armata et vestita di color Leonato, il qual color si-
gnifica Fortezza, per essere simigliante a quello del Leone, s'ap-
poggia questa donna ad una colonna, perché delle parti dell'Edifi-
cio questa è la più forte che l'altre sostiene, a' piedi di essa figura vi
giacerà un Leone animale da gli Egittii adoperato in questo proposi-
to, come si legge in molti scritti. (Cesare Ripa, Iconologia, 1593)

"A woman wearing reddish dress and armor. The color means 'Strength', because it is similar to the color or the Lion. The woman leans on a column, because that's the strongest part of a building, bearing the weight of all other parts. At the feet of this figure there will be a Lion, the animal that the Egyptians use for this purpose, as one can read in many sources."

One of the Sources of Ripa about Egypt was "Hieroglyphica, sive De sacris Aegyptiorum" by Pierio Valeriano (1556).

Marco

[Rosanne]

To Marco!

Thank you for such a perfect rounding to an interesting discussion that has evolved in this thread.

"A woman wearing reddish dress and armor. The color means 'Strength', because it is similar to the color or the Lion. The woman leans on a column, because that's the strongest part of a building, bearing the weight of all other parts. At the feet of this figure there will be a Lion, the animal that the Egyptians use for this purpose, as one can read in many sources."

One of the Sources of Ripa about Egypt was "Hieroglyphica, sive De sacris Aegyptiorum" by Pierio Valeriano (1556).

Almost a Tarot draw- 1 and a bit to 'Christian allegory'/ 1 and some to 'Pagan influence'.
ROTFL!!! Many Thanks!
~Rosanne

[ihcoyc]

Originally Posted by FrogStone

Decrees on the immorality of the cards based on their use in games seems frivolous if indeed the cards are strictly depictions of scriptural or moral allegory.

In pre-Reformation Europe, probably the least Christian institution was the Church. Remember that this is the same institution that did not want the Bible circulating in the vernacular. A collection of religious images that was assembled and distributed outside of the Church's imprimatur would have been an object of grave suspicion, whether it contained any notional or ideological content or not.

[DoctorArcanus]

Originally Posted by ihcoyc

A collection of religious images that was assembled and distributed outside of the Church's imprimatur would have been an object of grave suspicion, whether it contained any notional or ideological content or not.

For example, consider the comment of the Sermones de Ludo cum Aliis (1470 ca) about the "Pope" card:

O Pope, you rule with complete holiness and these criminals make of you their chief.

The "criminals" are the tarot players.

Marco

[FrogStone]

Originally Posted by DoctorArcanus

*snip*
Looking for the ancient origins of tarot symbols is something I find both fun and interesting. But, if we want to understand what tarot images meant in the XV century, it is important to remember which knowledge was available to people of the XV century. I am quite sure that the Bible was an important source of knowledge for people in the XV Century, while Durga was unknown in Europe at that time.
*snip*
Marco

With so much exchange via trade, crusades, stories of traveling minstrels – we do know that medieval Europe borrowed technology, stories and ideas from other cultures. And while it is plausible that ignorance explains the lack of definitive explanations for the images on the cards, I don’t think it is enough to exclude the possibility that fear of prosecution played a role.
What of the image of The Hanged Man? How does he fit into Christian allegory – I have read that some relate him to Judas – yet it does not seem plausible that one would represent the story of his suicide being accomplished via hanging by one foot (Maybe there is a different, and better fitting allegory?). Here, there seems a more viable connection with Odin/Woden of ancient Norse/German mythology.
Also standing out as a variation from the Christian theme is the World. Here, there is a striking resemblance to the Dancing Shiva (Natraja) – who dances the cosmos into existence. Is there a better fit with an alternative Christian allegory?

Originally Posted by DoctorArcanus

*snip*
We can also decide to incorporate the symbolism of Durga in our contemporary interpretation of Tarot, independently on any historical consideration. Of course, the original meaning of a symbol is not necessarily the most interesting interpretation.
*snip*

And maybe what is on the surface is masking something ... Maybe le Batleleur is leading us on a little journey of of illusion and misdirection ... If you dress something up in Christian clothes, does that make it Christian?

* and - Thank you for the information re: Hercules and Cesare Ripa.*

[FrogStone]

Originally Posted by ihcoyc

In pre-Reformation Europe, probably the least Christian institution was the Church. Remember that this is the same institution that did not want the Bible circulating in the vernacular. A collection of religious images that was assembled and distributed outside of the Church's imprimatur would have been an object of grave suspicion, whether it contained any notional or ideological content or not.

Excellent point! Thank you!

[Rosanne]

Originally Posted by FrogStone

And maybe what is on the surface is masking something ... Maybe le Batleleur is leading us on a little journey of of illusion and misdirection ... If you dress something up in Christian clothes, does that make it Christian?

Exactly my point FrogStone! We look for answers to why the La Papesse is so called for an example, and everyone comes up with a Christian idea (including me over the years) Mother Church, Faith, Charity, Mary Magdalene, Sister Manfreda, Pope Joan, Mrs Pope as in a pair- the list goes on. Why not classical Paganism as a priestess of Venus for example - that does not make Tarot occult- it just means another possible allegory that is not necessarily Christian at its heart.
As I keep repeating -a Christian theme for a card game seems odd- unless it was poking borax at the Church or reflecting card playing as another parallel to the Church and State, an Allegory of Universal Man? Or ones Fate and Fortune when you play cards. Or the images following a poem of Love conquering all- all dressed as as would be understood - of the day?
I understand Marco's quote O Pope, you rule with complete holiness and these criminals make of you their chief. Maybe the quoter of that line did not recognise a possible Zeus in disguise. Imagine if the Quote had been O Mother Church (La Papesse) you rule with complete Holiness and these Criminals make you their Temple

~Rosanne

[philebus]

A Christian theme for a card game need not seem very odd. The usual theory is that they are a triumph procession, which at the time, would have been Christian. The Christianity is one step removed and not the direct target - else perhaps the presentation might be a little more structured, even obvious. And if it takes as its theme the procession held to celebrate Bianca Visconti's birth, then religious intention is two steps removed.

In the case of the Female Pope, as the figure seems well established in Christian art of the time, we have good reason to assume that she is a Christian figure. I need some fairly good evidence to overrule the existing evidence for the conventional possition.