Tarot: Predictive or something far deeper

[Gazel]

Originally Posted by Syrah

I agree with zannamarie. And I'm also going to suggest something that comes from a different perspective.

The reality is that cards and readers can predict, and they can be psychological tools, and they can be other things. But the combination may not be exactly what we want, exactly when we want or ask for it.

I agree with you on this one.
Or the cards simply wants us to see or are showing to us a different picture than what we wanted to see, or what our point of view or approach makes us look for. But then we have a wake up call ...

That's why I like to this as a continuum or spectrum, not a "either-or".

Gazel

[Gazel]

Just popped in to say that I've done an experimental reading inspired by the discussion in this thread and the spread in the blog post, that initiated it.
You can see the reading here. Comments and interpretations will be appreciated or you could do your own experiencing ;o).

Gazel

[Formicida]

I wonder if the classroom setting might have hindered the predictive aspect of the reading. I don't do that type of readings myself, but people here always say that if you are, it's important to listen to any seemingly illogical ideas that come into your head. But even if I saw those three cards and the phrase "bank robber" popped into my head, I wouldn't care to explain to the rest of the class why I thought that Judgment, the 3 of Swords, and the Knight of Pentacles meant a bank robber. If for no other reason than that there *is* no why.

Probably no one in the class did have that idea pop into their minds, or (one hopes) they would have mentioned it in hindsight. But I also suspect they weren't trying for such things, but were trying to analyze the cards on an intellectual level. And at the intellectual level you're not going to see anything as specific as a bank robbery in three cards.

[Umbrae]

Originally Posted by Gazel

That's why I like to this as a continuum or spectrum, not a "either-or".

It is popular now to see the world in terms of Black & White, that side or this side, your way or my way.

It is (for the most part) unpopular and in some cases considered unreasonable to be ‘middle of the road’.

Originally Posted by Formicida

I wonder if the classroom setting might have hindered the predictive aspect of the reading. I don't do that type of readings myself, but people here always say that if you are, it's important to listen to any seemingly illogical ideas that come into your head. But even if I saw those three cards and the phrase "bank robber" popped into my head, I wouldn't care to explain to the rest of the class why I thought that Judgment, the 3 of Swords, and the Knight of Pentacles meant a bank robber. If for no other reason than that there *is* no why.

Very true. Cordite may also have been a difficult aroma to explain. Folks perhaps would react ‘as though you were crazy’ and we’ve been programmed to avoid ‘looking crazy’ at all costs.

Early on, there was a mention of Rashamon, which if you’ve never seen – you owe yourself a favor.

Rashomon tells a story where the participants ‘know the truth’. They see the story from their eyes. Yet each is an incomplete picture of the truth. It is not until a final incomplete picture is added that truth begins to emerge.

As a predictive reader, I don’t get truth. I get snapshots. I get incomplete images. The sitter and I can then begin to put them together. But not until I speak what I see.

As a psychological reader, I don’t get the truth. I get snapshots. I get incomplete images. The sitter and I can then begin to put them together.

If we are product oriented, the power rests with the deck/reader. The reader tells. End of story. This reading is for entertainment purposes only. $40 cash check Paypal major credit card. Next. May as well add in…you are a sensitive, intelligent person. You have the ability to cope with many situations. Although you are far from a wimpish type, you are not the overly aggressive or manipulative type either. You appear to be a very stable person – reliable. Blah blah blah…

If we’re process oriented, we sit with the sitter, we discuss the snapshots. Perhaps I discuss the snapshots from my predictive point of view, perhaps then we can discuss the snapshots from the sitter’s psychological points of view. Then we can perhaps arrive at something closer to a real truth.

However as readers, especially where the craft is honed on the medium of the internet where there is no immediacy – there is a tendency to tell. The card is turned over and we ‘tell’. Or we ask, “See these three swords sticking out of this bleeding heart? What does it mean to you…hmmm?” That’s not an exploration. That’s a leading question, and is ultimately product oriented (as it places the reader in a position of power – it makes the unstated assumption that the reader knows, but the sitter does not).

Reading is an art, where we craft the conversation to encompass not only what I see, and what you see; weighted evenly and openly.

And we must both realize - that we may both miss the bank robbery - but see the stepped on sholder.

[Teheuti]

Originally Posted by Umbrae

And we must both realize - that we may both miss the bank robbery - but see the stepped on sholder.

Wow, Umbrae, thanks so much. I finally "get" it. The Knight of Pentacles was the robber stepping on her shoulder and the 3 of Swords was the resulting pain. It's all so clear now—and so obvious! Oh, my gosh, how could I have missed seeing it all these years?

[Teheuti]

Someone just PMed me to ask if I was being sarcastic in the interpretation above. Here's my response:

I think it's a brilliant, literal way to interpret these cards. It does make sense. However, I think the reading actually operates well on all the levels we've discussed.

I have a particular warm-spot for shockingly literal meanings. They are so much fun and amazingly appropriate on so many occasions.

[Rosanne]

Originally Posted by Umbrae

In the illustrative story referred to in the above link, I believe that the limitation in the predictive aspect (“Everyone in class agreed that they could never have predicted a bank robbery from the cards Heidi had drawn.”), is due to the overuse of the WCS cards. The illustrations limit predictive interpretive language.

I missed this bit right back at the beginning.
Whoa!!! Bringing my Chariot to a halt.
Whattcha mean Willis???
The illustrations limit predictive interpretive language??(RWS)
How does anyone know that??
Do toothpicks limit you?
...... ..and come to think of it It would seem to me that if you look at the word Prediction what does your title to the thread mean?
It is quite deep to get a snapshot of the future I would have thought. What is the 'something deeper' that you are querying about.

You know something, in a reading I do not much pick up on literal meanings. After the fact I do. Then I laugh at the obvious- but that then becomes a curiosity as the reading is done. I want readings to be helpful. Finding after the fact that X card indicated I was going to get stung badly, would have made me a little more aware of Wasps in the Letterbox. After the event it just made me raise my eyebrows. You can only see what your brain and experience at the time presents to yourself when reading the cards. So if Prediction is limited- then I guess we should find a way quantify how limited?
~Rosanne

[Baroli]

You know something, in a reading I do not much pick up on literal meanings. After the fact I do. Then I laugh at the obvious- but that then becomes a curiosity as the reading is done.

Well, Roseanne I get literal interps. right then and there. I run with them, just like I would run with anything else. I am not understanding what you are saying.

I want readings to be helpful.

Ahhh, don't we all????

Finding after the fact that X card indicated I was going to get stung badly, would have made me a little more aware of Wasps in the Letterbox. After the event it just made me raise my eyebrows. You can only see what your brain and experience at the time presents to yourself when reading the cards. So if Prediction is limited- then I guess we should find a way quantify how limited?
~Rosanne

I am just not understanding your point. Is there one???

[firemaiden]

I am glad Rosanne requoted the opening post where Umbrae states he believes that the limiting factor may be in fact be the illustrations themselves.

The thought might seem to go against the grain for many of us... especially those of us, like myself most particularly, who rely on the actual illustrations to come up with an interpretation.

But I have never pretended to be a tarot reader. I have always been more interested in art that in divination, and if I can tell a story from art, more's the fun, and if it happens to accidentally be predictive, I'm usually flabherghasted.

When I think about Umbrae's very thought provoking idea-- that the illustrations themselves may be the limiting factor -- several thoughts occur to me. First of all: I am reminded of the invitation Umbrae gave one day - to "sniff" a card, and say the first thing that came into your head. I did so, that day, and these magical words popped into my head : "stars, a spark of light from far away". It was such a revelation.

Whether or not pictures limit our readings by engaging our cerebral cortex -- sniffing the cards reminds me there is another way. There is that thing which sometimes happens behind, underneath, and between the cards when other ways of perceiving are invoked.

I do not know what would happen if I were to develop my faculty of "listening" further. If I were to lay the cards out, and then instead of juicing every pictoral element for its metaphoric stuff, if I were to instead "sniff" the cards, or maybe listen to the sounds the backs make as they slap onto the table, I might better hear the otherworldy voice ... perhaps then -- I might begin to "believe" in divination.

I think it is this faculty of "listening" which Rosanne evokes when she writes about the boy, and the sudden certainty that came upon her about the boy's fate.

Was it from the cards?

Yes ... no... yes... no... yes ....no.. yes... no....

I think the question is more important than the answer.

[Rosanne]

Hi Baroli!
I got a card from the Deviant Moon 10 Swords and I had every thought but the literal one- I got stung by wasps sticking my hand in the letterbox. One would have to see the Deviant Moon 10 Swords to see the literal take that I missed.

If you miss literal meanings sometimes then the reading has not been helpful, as the above explanation shows.

Sorry you seem to think I post meaningless pointless posts.
I find sarcasm unhelpful myself.
~Rosanne