A Thoth semi-clone

[Egypt Urnash]

Hi, denizens of the Thoth study board. I've spent the last year or so working on a fully-illustrated deck that owes a lot to the Thoth - Crowley's book was one of my primary resources for the pips and Courts.

I'm working on the cover letters for potential publishers, and would like some input on whether or not folks seriously using the Thoth feel that I should be explicitly describing it as a Thoth clone, or if I've made enough changes that I'd be better off barely mentioning its connection to the Thoth at all when trying to sell it. Or just list the Thoth as one of my main inspirations.

The deck's page on my site is here; the thread over on the Deck Creation forum is here.

(Differences: all my pips are scenic; the Majors are not following any of Crowley's changes*; the wands and pents are largely swapped, and a few of the pips are inspired more by other decks, or my own muses. There's also a few extras that are still in the works.)

Hopefully posting this here isn't too off-topic. It is, after all, my thoughts after a year's study of the Thoth combined with some other decks, bit in visual form rather than textual!

*although my decision to have three Fools in the final deck is inspired by the way some editions of the Thoth include two earlier takes on the Magus...

[ravenest]

Originally Posted by Egypt Urnash

I'm working on the cover letters for potential publishers, and would like some input on whether or not folks seriously using the Thoth feel that I should be explicitly describing it as a Thoth clone, or if I've made enough changes that I'd be better off barely mentioning its connection to the Thoth at all when trying to sell it. Or just list the Thoth as one of my main inspirations.

Personally, I would have no interest in anyone's Thoth clone deck unless they also publiched their background experience with the material, their level of initiation or understanding of Thelema and a reason why they felt the need to publish yet another deck based on Thoth. Other wise I doubt that the deck would be helpful to me.

I'd much prefer to see such a deck marketed as a particular persons understanding of Thelema as opposed to a clone or a corrupted copy of AC's understanding.

But then again, you mention "when trying to sell it". if this is your prime motivation then perhaps different advice should be sought.

[Debra]

I don't know about the Thothiness, but art-wise you sure know what you're doing, Egypt. Congratulations on your successful show in Boston! Also your very very good hair!

A technical glitch. On your web page link--once you click on the major arcana or one of the suits, you can't get back to the main page.

[thorhammer]

I think that the word "clone" is self-limiting in any situation. Your cards are by no means "clones" of the Thoth cards - either the Majors or Minors. So if you explain that they're inspired by Crowley/the Thoth deck/Thelema, and draw on those themes and that the deck is an attempt to further explore the Thelemic themes through scenic Minors . . .

Does that help?

I have a degree in BS

\m/ Kat

[sapienza]

Hey, congratulations on finishing your deck. I would certainly not consider your deck a clone of the Thoth. When I think of a clone, I think of a deck that is basically a re-drawing. Like, say the Hanson-Roberts as a clone of the RWS. In your case, the connection to the Thoth is not obvious and so I'd agree with Kat, and suggest it may be a Thoth 'inspired' deck.

However, I wonder if marketing a deck as being 'Thoth inspired' has the potential to put people off. Firstly, those who don't like or use the Thoth, just think 'not for me', and those who love the Thoth, think... 'it's not Thoth enough for me'. Just looking briefly at your deck, it seems to me like it would stand on it's own without needing to be linked to anything else. So, in answer to your question, I'd just say that the Thoth deck was an inspiration for you and leave it at that. Just my thoughts anyway.

Best of luck with getting the deck published.

[ZenMusic]

looks great, I'd buy it.. the Thoth is my primary deck and has been the focus of my study for decades..
... yours is an artist interpretation, perhaps "inspired by" ..

Aeclectic defines a Thoth Clone as "Tarot decks that substantially reproduce or clone the symbolism and structure of the Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot."

and a Waite clone is "Tarot cards and decks have recoloured or closely redrawn Pamela Colman-Smith's drawings, originally used in the Rider-Waite Tarot. "


so "clone" isn't bad , the Liber T is a wonderful deck and listed as a "clone"
(and many great RWC clones are great decks)

but, I was surprised the Liber T went out of print (Thoth is one of the best selling decks) ,so maybe a wider "inspired by the Thoth and Rider-Waite"
no need to mention Thelema

[DoctorArcanus]

I think the deck is very nice and original. Possibly, the inspiration has been more from Frida Harris than from Crowley.
I also think Urnash makes an intelligent use of a few ancient cards from the Sola Busca deck (I compare Helena to the beautiful Urnash queen of pentacles, the Sola Busca 8 of discs to Urnash Hanged man and the Sola Busca 9 of cups to Urnash Temperance). But likely this is just an effect of my personal obsession with Sola Busca

I don't love computer generated images, but I think these cards are based on excellent ideas. Maybe someday someone will paint an Urnash clone?

Marco

[Macavity]

Originally Posted by ravenest

Personally, I would have no interest in anyone's Thoth clone deck unless they also publiched their background experience with the material, their level of initiation or understanding of Thelema and a reason why they felt the need to publish yet another deck based on Thoth. Other wise I doubt that the deck would be helpful to me.

Blimey Mate, you're a "cheerful sort", aintcha. [teasing]

Seriously though, the Thoth is (IMO) perhaps the "best" of decks, but some of it's CLONES... Clive Barrett's "Ancient Egyptian", The "Losche Cosmic" are a FAIR introduction to the subject... and reasonable READING decks?

As I breeze through my various Tarot forums, I once frequented, I sense we are (collectively) a vanishing species. I have studied "Thelema" ... more than some Thelemites? Idem Taroists... Are we ALL miserable such f*rts? LOL.

Hey, it's NOT personal - Just an OBSERVATION... Dunno why I still "dally" with the Tarot.

P.S. "Hi" to Diana (sadly what was) ... JMD... Firemaiden(!), even perhaps (anti-TABI-ists) Major Tom... and the inimitable... Umbrae. LOL. As i pass by... Daring these people to reply! That's still just ME... (fairly) affectionally etc.

(Sorry if I've embarrased any of them - But a PM just to say "HI" might not go amiss?)

[Teheuti]

I'd just list the Thoth as an inspiration. You don't want to come off to a publisher sounding like an understudy.

Mary

[Nevada]

It's difficult for me to see it as a clone -- though I find it beautiful. Great deck!

I would go with calling it "inspired by" rather than a clone. I think most people expect a clone to be pretty darn close to the original. Like some of the slightly recolored or edited RWS clones -- if you've seen the Roberto de Angelis Universal Tarot, you'll know what I mean. Yours just isn't that close to the Thoth.

Nevada