Visconti Sforza Order of Painting the Cards ..

[Elven]

I was doing some research on Tower construction and one thing led to another ...

... and I wondered what the order of the cards of the VS deck were painted in.

That I didn't quite manage, but I did notice the cards may have been painted in 'groups', and the order is not the same as the Tarot Order.

I noticed the landscapes in the background more so than the main picture on the cards ... then I noticed a row of trees ... and then some hills ... and then some cliffs ... and then a water hole ...

so I put the cards together to match their backgrounds ...
and then a pattern emerged as to the subtle but different colours which the basis of the painting were ...

some greens are very lime like - some are pale - some have a yellow under canvas ... some are dark ... some of the golds are more 'golden' - some of the reds are more red.

This comes from different paint bases and mixtures, as well as different ocre blends, and the unavailability of definite paint colour availability - as well as artistic license ...

Attached pics are the groups of cards (in line) whose backgrounds match and form a picture - or/and the backgrounds and other elements are similar - such as the greens and whites are similar ...

another interesting thing I discovered:
The Tower Card and The Sun Card have the same background reproduced with different elements (see photo 1)
The Devil Card and the Temperance Card have the same almost exactly the same cliff markings (see photo 1)
(I understand both the Tower and the Devil Cards are reproduction substitutes for the originals)

To view the cards similarities and see how different groups may have been painted in lots (my speculation only) you will have to get out your deck and place the cards in the rows and order which I have placed in the pictures.

Though they are bad photos, you can see that they match up (sort of) ... and how the background shows a definite landscape.
There are 8 groups altogether - there are 5 pics here, and I'll place the other 3 in the next thread

Any thoughts from the historians out there - this is probably something already known - (sorry).

Cheers
Elven x

[Elven]

Here are the rest ....

and you may have to get your cards out and place them in order (on the carpet ) in their groupings to get the feel for the different colours and texture groupings of cards
The groups of cards differ from the order of the deck order.

Cheers
Elven x

[Huck]

There is a more or less general agreement, that the 20 trumps were painted by two different artists.

As "later pictures" of the second artist are considered:

* 2 or 3 cardinal-virtues: Fortitudo - Temperantia - Prudentia (or "World")
* 3 bodies of heaven: Star - Moon - Sun

This circumstance is differently interpreted:

* some think, that this are simply replacement cards for an already existing deck with originally 21 trumps and a Fool (normal structure of Tarot, which according this idea existed at least since ca. 1450)

* other think, that the original old Trionfi decks had only a 5x14-structure and occasionally a 5x16-structure ... according this opinion the six cards of the second painter were later additions and not replacements.
These assumptions go back to the socalled 5x14-theory
- see: http://trionfi.com/0/f and other chapters at http://trionfi.com

It's a very complex theme.

[Elven]

Thanks huck

I will go have a read

I think my question or observation though regarded the background colour matches - the different card groups have their own distinct colour matches, brush width markings, etc, especially for the base of the paintings, and I thought this may be cards which were painted at the same time.

So how does that work in then with the groups of colours of the paintings?
Is there nothing inter-related to the similar colours and textures of each group of paintings and their backgrounds?

I thought each group of paintings came from the one group palette - (and this would allow for more than one artist then). If there were replacement cards done by another artist, they would have their own specific type of colour and texture as well?

I was interested in how a group of cards (paintings) had definite colours and textures that matched.

Would you agree?

Just trying to see if anyone else can see this colour matching

Cheers
Elven x

[Huck]

It might be, that the choice of background in the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo- Tarocchi has meaning.

For instance it might suggest a defined row of the cards by the height of the mountains - for those cards, which show one or at least some green in the background.

But there are too many unknown factors to come to sure conclusions about the meaning - just my opinion.

For instance we have evidence, that this VS-deck had parallel decks ... it was not a single edition ...
(just compare: Leonello in his deck of 1442 produced 4 decks, likely all of the same kind, but not naturally all totally identical; the Charles VI deck looks partly very similar to the cards, which are assumed to have been in possession of Alessandro Sforza ... but Temperance is in both decks and totally variated)

If we assume, that the Sforzas produced a series of decks (10 or 20 ? ) for their personal use in ca. 1452 as their own "family game", a 5x14-deck. The culture and success of the game resulted in an addition of some cards 13 years later (perhaps cause just a new wedding and these cards were made for weddings or special successes).
The 6 added cards would be new ... the others a little used. Perhaps one would sort the older sets to get the best 14 cards or 70 cards, not naturally from one specific set, just a mix of the whole series ... specific background details wouldn't count too much. When the new deck form was accepted, the decision was done to keep one deck for memory reasons, never played with again ... the deck survived nearly completely, that's rather astonishing, and has to be considered

In this scenario you might have finally a sortiment of cards, in which background details wouldn't be reliable ... although more or less all cards would be rather old.
Handpainted cards are simply not as reliable as printed cards ... if the commissioner asked for a variated Temperance for instance he would get one.

... :-) ... beside that there is a huge field of possible forgery .... :-)

[Rosanne]

Hi Elven!

You are touching on my favorite Tarot Subject! These Visconti Cards.

I agree you can look at them artistically and here is a thread I posted, you might be interested in.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=107622

I have some other views about the cards as well as to why some are missing and some look very different. Huck mentioned forgery- and that is a very distinct possibility. The missing cards from various decks I also believe may have been given as gifts on the feast of John the Baptist- as this was a tradition to give tokens, and these tokens were sometimes put in the church for blessing- and printers also sold individual images for putting in scrapbooks- a big pastime. The Uffizi Museum in Florence has many, many of these notebooks- often made while men were in prison awaiting Death. Francesco Sforza made one while been held prisoner by Fillipo Visconti. They told a personal family history with plays, poems, drawings and events. A rich source if we could access them for tarot history.

It is interesting that several cards have been used so much that the gilding tool foil has worn off to the oxide base. The worst one is one we call the Lovers. I can imagine that would be the card the got handled the most- but if they were there the Tower and Devil would have been popular as well. Maybe they got worn out lol.

Also the scenery is in keeping with been part of the huge hunting grounds owned by the Visconti/Sforza family around the Certosa of Pavia in Lombardy- which was a holiday area for both the Visconti and the Sforza. It is thought the cliftop edge is the front lawn of the Certosa or Monastery.
I think it likely it was in front of the Hunting lodge in the park where the family had sports and pastimes.
The trees you see would have been the forest toward the plains of the River Po, and the purple hills looking west to the port of Genoa(and guess what Death has at it's back?) You could not see the Alps from any holdings belonging to Bianca(like Cremona) or Francesco.
One day I am going to see the originals if I can. It is also noticeable that most wearing is on the lower parts of the cards where your thumb would wear away at the image in holding a hand of cards.
~Rosanne

[Elven]

Originally Posted by huck

For instance we have evidence, that this VS-deck had parallel decks ... it was not a single edition ...

Hi huck

No, I didn't know that, but looking at the cards it seems as if that could be the case. I makes sense - even if one group of card colours, markings and textures match, it could be concluded that one of the cards of the group could come from another deck.

Originally Posted by huck

If we assume, that the Sforzas produced a series of decks (10 or 20 ? ) for their personal use in ca. 1452 as their own "family game", a 5x14-deck. The culture and success of the game resulted in an addition of some cards 13 years later (perhaps cause just a new wedding and these cards were made for weddings or special successes).

What a precious gift!

Originally Posted by huck

The 6 added cards would be new ... the others a little used. Perhaps one would sort the older sets to get the best 14 cards or 70 cards, not naturally from one specific set, just a mix of the whole series ... specific background details wouldn't count too much. When the new deck form was accepted, the decision was done to keep one deck for memory reasons, never played with again ... the deck survived nearly completely, that's rather astonishing, and has to be considered.

Yes, I could see that. The 8 groups are assorted and if looked at as being selected cards from several decks, it would maybe why they are a mixture of cards, and not in any specific order in the group - the best of the packs combined to make a deck.

Originally Posted by huck

In this scenario you might have finally a sortiment of cards, in which background details wouldn't be reliable ... although more or less all cards would be rather old.

Yes, this seems very possible, as the groupings are quite specifically 'different' yet the same.

Originally Posted by huck

Handpainted cards are simply not as reliable as printed cards ... if the commissioner asked for a variated Temperance for instance he would get one.

and that's a good thing, I like the difference in the cards, and I like the way the printing of the pips are ver different as well - the inking is strong with some and not with others.

Originally Posted by huck

... :-) ... beside that there is a huge field of possible forgery .... :-)

Im sure there is! whether we know it or not, and if it was on purpose or not also - nothing like a quick replacement card

Thankyou huck for the links (I went and had a read) and also for replying to the thread again.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by Rosanne

I have some other views about the cards as well as to why some are missing and some look very different. Huck mentioned forgery- and that is a very distinct possibility. The missing cards from various decks I also believe may have been given as gifts on the feast of John the Baptist- as this was a tradition to give tokens, and these tokens were sometimes put in the church for blessing- and printers also sold individual images for putting in scrapbooks- a big pastime.

I could see how these cards overtime were seperated then. I have a few decks like that myself But at least I chose only to break up one deck and leave the rest intact

Originally Posted by Rosanne

The Uffizi Museum in Florence has many, many of these notebooks- often made while men were in prison awaiting Death. Francesco Sforza made one while been held prisoner by Fillipo Visconti. They told a personal family history with plays, poems, drawings and events. A rich source if we could access them for tarot history.

Oh wow! What a story ... thats very interesting! The Scrapbooks of Death Row.

Originally Posted by Rosanne

It is interesting that several cards have been used so much that the gilding tool foil has worn off to the oxide base. The worst one is one we call the Lovers. I can imagine that would be the card the got handled the most- but if they were there the Tower and Devil would have been popular as well. Maybe they got worn out lol.

Also that the Gilding at the time may not have been put on properly, or not dried properly - or as you say too much handling! ... I like the red underneath coming through on that card though - it does something for it!

Originally Posted by Roseanne

Also the scenery is in keeping with been part of the huge hunting grounds owned by the Visconti/Sforza family around the Certosa of Pavia in Lombardy- which was a holiday area for both the Visconti and the Sforza. It is thought the cliftop edge is the front lawn of the Certosa or Monastery.
I think it likely it was in front of the Hunting lodge in the park where the family had sports and pastimes.
The trees you see would have been the forest toward the plains of the River Po, and the purple hills looking west to the port of Genoa(and guess what Death has at it's back?) You could not see the Alps from any holdings belonging to Bianca(like Cremona) or Francesco.

I thought it looked very similar to some paintings I had seen of parties held on the greens - the trees and the way the grounds were laid out. Its the first time I have seen the landscapes pieced together, so it was a really pleasant suprise, as I always thought the blue under the Hanged Mans Head was some form of aura colour - its a lake between two hills.

Originally Posted by Rosanne

One day I am going to see the originals if I can. It is also noticeable that most wearing is on the lower parts of the cards where your thumb would wear away at the image in holding a hand of cards.

and that is a great thing to note. The wear actually allows the base colour to come through clearly, and that sems to hold alot of the differences in the cards. The top colours can be varying, but the base colours are definite and the groupings were done looking firstly at this 'wear' spot area.

I also feel that some of the colours have been re-done (gone over) on some cards and in certain areas. I am assuming/speculating (from what huck has mentioned with the selection of cards and forgeries) once a full deck was made from a selection of cards from different decks, the cards may have been touched up with one colour. Take the red for example - the Magician is very red, and that same red then is seen in places (a shoe, a stocking) on a card across a few groups. That colour could only have come (IMHO) about if the 'groups' of selected cards were as one deck. It also happens with the white, and the greens - some are stronger in places all over the deck ... Im am sure they were touch-ups before I knew about the cards being put together from different decks. These certainly look like newer colours.
Just a thought

Thankyou historians!
Cheers
Elven x

[Skimo]

Can't there be another parameter in the equation > the storage of the cards and their alteration in time?

[Elven]

Originally Posted by Skimo

Can't there be another parameter in the equation > the storage of the cards and their alteration in time?

Hi Skimo
Im not an expert in this field, just interested in this particular deck

I don't doubt that time and storage would have contributed to the state of the paintings in every aspect - from what they were painted on, painted with, stored, handled ... even the amount of sun, moisture, handling and air they recieved.

But in the colour, texture groupings there is a consistancy about those elements, which I think even if they were all stored differently, there would still be some indicators of them being similar.

Just on a note - did/has anyone laid out the actual cards and had a look at them in order, in the groups?
Did you notice anything else about the groupings, are there cards which you think belong in other groups?
Just curious

Cheers
Elven x

[geomancer]

Hello Elven,

I have been fascinated with this deck for a number of years now and amongst other things, I have developed a matrix of background and foreground elements.

If there is any interest out there, I can put some data together and post as a PDF file.

Cheers,
Trevor