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SolSionnach 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
Sravana,

I'd read your post before breakfast, and was thinking about your 1 of Swords. I wasn't sure how, with just one card, one could determine if a certain card's energy was 'coming from them', or 'going to them'. If one were to just go by the active/passive energy signature of the card itself, the Ace of Swords is active, hence the energy would be coming from you. I was just sitting down to add my thought to the thread, but I see I'm too late to save those poor ants from Mama Doom!

You know, I hadn't even considered the direction of the energy. I see your point completely - that's something to consider in the future.

Not only that, but my Poor Hadar also got the worst of it from me - being put out in the sun and made to pay for being bad, when it wasn't being bad at all! Talk about Mama Doom!

So I'm considering what to do to make up for that...

Another thing. It's obvious that the 1/swords fire/fire would be active, but would you say that *all* the swords cards tend to be outwardly active, since they are all fire - or would, say, the 10 be more passive because of the 10=earth thing?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by sravana
It's obvious that the 1/swords fire/fire would be active, but would you say that *all* the swords cards tend to be outwardly active, since they are all fire - or would, say, the 10 be more passive because of the 10=earth thing?

Not all the Swords are 'active'. Those with a Choleric-Phlegmatic signature become neutral - 2 Swords, 6 Swords, 8 Swords, Queen Swords.
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SolSionnach 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
Not all the Swords are 'active'. Those with a Choleric-Phlegmatic signature become neutral - 2 Swords, 6 Swords, 8 Swords, Queen Swords.
Ah. And that would be because fire/water share nothing in common, where fire/air share hot, and fire/earth share dry?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by sravana
Ah. And that would be because fire/water share nothing in common, where fire/air share hot, and fire/earth share dry?
Yes!

I work from the Powers to determine gender.


Dry is rigid, formative, inflexible - clearly male.

Cold is uniting, undiscriminating, indecisive, nurturing - female.

Moisture is conforming, flexible, passive, yielding - female.

Heat is separating, discriminating, and expansive - male.



In cases where there is both a female power, and a male power, the power of temperature will dominate:


Elemental Air - Hot + Moist - Heat dominates, making Air male.

Elemental Earth - Cold + Dry - Cold dominates, making Earth female.
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Melanchollic 
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On Elements and Trumps


On Elements and Trumps

Thanks Bee, for posting the ol' CRVX CVBIS elements. Keep in mind those are just one possibility.

The trumps are so complex that any one of them could have at least two possible elements, maybe more. Say DEATH for example:

There is the clear classical association to Saturn, so Earthy (Melancholic). But yet there is the common association of Death as Winter, which in classical astrology is Phlegmatic (Water). My personal preference was to go with the 'seasonal' theme, since I suspect such a device may be part of the original allegory of the Trumps themselves. I believe cards 6 ~ 13 show us a kind of 'seasons of life' motif. Fortune and Father Time (yes, that's the Hermit) move us around the 'year' of human life - Spring is Love and all the joys of youthful pleasure - Summer is Triumphal Chariot, symbolic of fame, honors, and worldly success - Fall is indeed our fall, dishonor and defamation - Winter is the cold boney hand of the Grim Reaper. That would give us:
Spring = Love = Air
Summer = Fame (Chariot) = Fire
Fall = The Traitor = Earth
Winter = Death = Water
Again, but one approach.

The important thing is to understand what the classical elements really mean (so read your Aristotle), and making sure a card is congruent with the element you've assigned it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
Yes!

I work from the Powers to determine gender.

Dry is rigid, formative, inflexible - clearly male.
Cold is uniting, undiscriminating, indecisive, nurturing - female.
Moisture is conforming, flexible, passive, yielding - female.
Heat is separating, discriminating, and expansive - male.


In cases where there is both a female power, and a male power, the power of temperature will dominate:

Elemental Air - Hot + Moist - Heat dominates, making Air male.
Elemental Earth - Cold + Dry - Cold dominates, making Earth female.
Mel, that last bit is interesting. I suppose I could've come to see it as a result of temperature, but coming from the 'usual' GD tarot elemental understandings, I simply see Earth as female (not active) and Air as male (active). So I come to the same understanding from another place - but it's good to see it from this traditional perspective, and how the GD was consistent with it - but with a twist.

OT: BTW - do you have the Noblet? and if you do, how the heck do you shuffle it?



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SolSionnach 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
On Elements and Trumps

Thanks Bee, for posting the ol' CRVX CVBIS elements. Keep in mind those are just one possibility.

The trumps are so complex that any one of them could have at least two possible elements, maybe more. Say DEATH for example:

There is the clear classical association to Saturn, so Earthy (Melancholic). But yet there is the common association of Death as Winter, which in classical astrology is Phlegmatic (Water). My personal preference was to go with the 'seasonal' theme, since I suspect such a device may be part of the original allegory of the Trumps themselves. I believe cards 6 ~ 13 show us a kind of 'seasons of life' motif. Fortune and Father Time (yes, that's the Hermit) move us around the 'year' of human life - Spring is Love and all the joys of youthful pleasure - Summer is Triumphal Chariot, symbolic of fame, honors, and worldly success - Fall is indeed our fall, dishonor and defamation - Winter is the cold boney hand of the Grim Reaper. That would give us:
Spring = Love = Air
Summer = Fame (Chariot) = Fire
Fall = The Traitor = Earth
Winter = Death = Water
Again, but one approach.

The important thing is to understand what the classical elements really mean (so read your Aristotle), and making sure a card is congruent with the element you've assigned it.
I'm not sure if I should post a question about this here, or here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=113171 ... I'll go with here for now.

I'm used to:
air = east = spring
fire = south = summer
water = west = fall
earth = north = winter
I mean, earth is cold and dry - harsh, like winter.
Water as winter doesn't make sense to me.

Can you explain further?

(oh, and more pip posts, please! )



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Quote:
Originally Posted by sravana

I mean, earth is cold and dry - harsh, like winter.
Water as winter doesn't make sense to me.

Can you explain further?

There were several 'systems' through out history. I believe the one I'm using was the most 'orthodox' as far as medicine and astrology.





Based on a diagram from Isidore of Seville, Liber de responsione
mundi
(Augsburg, 1472). Original in the Huntington Library



I believe Winter was considered to be wet and cold, due to the heavy precipitation. And also Spring (hot + wet) "April showers bring May flowers." Summer and Autumn are generally dry.

I quite like Autumn as Earth. The just harvested fields look cool and dry before the winter snows cover them, and the leaves have lost all their moisture and dried to golden yellows and browns.
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3 of Coins


3 OF COINS

Nickname - "Mediation"
Element - Air/Water
Temper - Sanguine Phlegmatic
Power - Wet
Timing - Short
Movement - Flexible
Direction - Northeast
In the cycle of a year - February/March
In the cycle of a day - Late Night
In the cycle of a life - Age 70~Death
Sex - Female
Similar Cards - 9 Coins, 5 Coins, Knight Coins, 8 Cups, 6 Cups, 2 of Cups, Queen Cups



The 3 of Coins is moderately well dignified. The predominant power here is moisture, which is receptive, adaptive, flexible, and understanding. The triad (3) is "a mean between the others, and wants to restore the balance of the monad (1) after the separation of the dyad (2). The 3 of Swords does this through the explosive force of heat. The moist 3 of Coins seeks the same end, but through mediation.

The Theology of Arithmetic says,

"The Triad is the first to make actual the potentialities of the monad."

So we can say the 3 of Coins strives to make actual the potentialities of the Ace of Coins - Peace! The energy is passive however, so it is never intrusive or abrupt. The mediation of the 3 of Coins is indirect, subtle, but effective. It could also represent some thing or event that unites a schism unintentionally.

Short Example Reading

Card #1 (The Querent) = The Empress
Card #2 (The Quesited) = The Magician
Card #3 (How they interact) = The 3 of Coins

The Querent asks: "My wife hasn't had good relations with her parents for many years. How can they patch things up?"

Judgement: The wife is passive/neutral (Empress), and the parents are active/negative (Juggler). The 3 of Coins shows us a mediation is possible, but it must come from the parents (being active). The wife (passive) won't initiate it! The parents as Juggler could be the way the wife views her parents - dishonest, or it could be showing the way to a reconciliation would be through a little innocent 'trickery'.
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Bernice 
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'lo Mel & 'Vana,

Quote:
MEL: Say DEATH for example:

There is the clear classical association to Saturn, so Earthy (Melancholic). But yet there is the common association of Death as Winter, which in classical astrology is Phlegmatic (Water). My personal preference was to go with the 'seasonal' theme, since I suspect such a device may be part of the original allegory of the Trumps themselves. I believe cards 6 ~ 13 show us a kind of 'seasons of life' motif. Fortune and Father Time (yes, that's the Hermit) move us around the 'year' of human life - Spring is Love and all the joys of youthful pleasure - Summer is Triumphal Chariot, symbolic of fame, honors, and worldly success - Fall is indeed our fall, dishonor and defamation - Winter is the cold boney hand of the Grim Reaper. That would give us:

Spring = Love = Air
Summer = Fame (Chariot) = Fire
Fall = The Traitor = Earth
Winter = Death = Water

Again, but one approach....
I do understand. A 'reader' with full comprehension of the elemental attributes in each Trump would be able to relate any one card to a specific question - with knobs on!

But the all methods you post have an inner core of simplicity, so I'm sticking to the CRVX CVBIS elements at present. If this model is not suitable, please do advise me/us or we'll be going astray.

LOVE your explanations for the pip cards - clarity rules

Bee

EDIT: In one of your posts you mention that the Devil ranks the worst (in this approach). Looking at the 'three pillar' diagram for the Trump Ranking, does this mean that the strongest/most intense cards are along the top row?

Last edited by Bernice; 20-02-2009 at 21:48.
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