Studying the Marseille deck as essential to studying Tarot! - Page 2

Moongold · 04-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by jmd
.........mastery of this deck allows for greater looseness of the imaginative, inspirational and intuitional faculties... (maybe I'm being too controversial here - but I must admit that I truly do hold to this).[/list]I often try to both be reasonably open to other decks (which I also, incidentally, highly value), other people's opinion (which I also highly value), and not try to really 'push' for the Marseilles - even if I often mention it as a possibility.

Here, I am being more forthcoming, and am controversially (without much doubt) stating that, irrespective of any other decks also studied and worked with, the Marseilles needs to also be included...

... this wasn't too strongly put, was it?!?

Hi again, JMD and also Diana,

I appreciate the historical value of the Marseilles and read about it when I began to learn Tarot. I doubt that I would have stayed with it had the Marseilles been all that was available however, and I guess many people feel the same. I am really keen to purchase a Marseilles but couldn't find one in Melbourne last week.

The Marseilles is like beautiful old wine. Not everyone likes wine, however, and many people don't drink.

How would you ensure that people learnt the Marseilles, JMD?

Maybe US Games could be persuaded to give away a free Marseilles with each "label" deck they sell. That would introduce people to the Marseilles and to history as well.

Moongold

**jmd** · 04-03-2003

I had written an earlier reply to some of the comments, and it somehow got cyberlost (maybe the wormed-hole ate it)...

I have, in what follows, not addressed everyone's comments - I'll try to redress this later. As to the Melbourne shops - and the TS in particular - not currently having Marseilles decks in stock, I'm shocked. Try Esoteric Bookshop in Hawthorn, or Celebrations Metaphysical in Croydon Hills, or the Steiner Store in Kew. Failing that, the new Lygon Street Borders opposite that great Melbourne Bookshop Readings, or some of the numerous smaller new-age shops around the place are bound to have a few!
_______________

I suppose that the historical seniority of the deck isn't really at issue, for others may - though I personally doubt it - be more ancient (such as the Visconti Sforza). The point is that the Marseille provides the root to those other decks which have emerged, provides, so to speak, the essence of determining Tarot as Tarot: deviate too much from Marseille iconography, and you've exited Tarot domain.

The artwork of the Marseilles has, in more than one way, been updated a number of times - the Camoin, Hadar and Marteau (Grimaud) are but three 20th century examples. The 'updates', however, seek to maintain those characteristics which are essential to the deck, and neither add nor subtract from the deck - each of those three decks mentioned (and, of course, other Marseilles) do this in mildly different ways. But I also realise that the kind of 'update' implied seeks to possibly change the very nature of the image to something more 'modern': what is a High Priestess in modern society? If this question can still be asked, however, the image has served its purpose, for it remains understood - and I specifically mention this particular card for even in Renaissance times, and though its society was image, or rather, iconographically rich, much of Tarot's images were not as common as may at first be presumed.

I agree with Holmes that mastery of any deck will become the basis for understanding other decks. This is surely an argument for the very careful selection of that deck which one will seek to master - for its specifics will colour others. Here again, the Marseille stands alone: no specific individuals (as in the Visconti-Sforza) nor particular astrological, elemental or kabbalistic associations mar the image. These other and important considerations may therefore be allocated in various proper ways by various individuals on the various pathways towards the horizon of mastery.

The Etteilla has been (and thanks for mentioning it and that site, Macavity), in many ways and until the 20th century, very much the main modified esoteric deck on the continent of Europe, much like the RWCS has been in the 20th century. Each, however, is accurate as Tarot to the extent they have similarities to the Marseilles. Their peculiar deviations - though wonderful for further related study - is also their weakness as Tarot. If this is the case, it again makes for the study of the Marseilles as crucially important, even if seemingly (& it is only an appearance) excruciatingly difficult for some.

With regards to Moongold's astute observations, and her partial listing of some of those qualities she has carefully observed - such that I am witty, delightful, knowledgeable, friendly, sensitive and aware man (my humblest apologies if I've omitted some other observed important attributes) - my other virtue (obviously omitted for no apparent reason) of pious modesty prevents me from making further comments

With Kaz, my main Tarot reading deck is actually not a Marseilles (though in my case, one which is closely related). I suppose that when I joined this site, I decided for various reasons that I would not do any full readings (as with any decision, however, it may be periodically reviewed - which I will therefore do). I have, however, made a (small) number of direct contributions to possible interpretations of other's readings, and the meaning of various cards in isolation, in combination and in certain positions. For example, one recent one which comes to mind is firemaiden's choice of three musical pieces, and another is in the thread 'Right after the WTC attack'.

Certainly anyone with a certain amount of experience and background knowledge may see in the cards certain aspects others may have difficulties seeing, and some of us wonderful story tellers will weave a meaningful whole from the separate cards more easily - but an accurate reading will depend on its accuracy not from these skills (which may only aide), but from the open disposition of the reader at the specific time, whether the reader be 'experienced' or be a 'beginner' (we are all the latter in some ways).

The awe Diana mentions is, in my view, the first step. Awe and reverence.

... and a little PS to Moongold - the next Melbourne Tarot Café will focus on the Celtic Cross - and possibly other spreads will come into it - so I'll have to give actual demonstrations of on-the-spot readings...

**HOLMES** · 04-03-2003

i did have the classic tarot by stuart kaplan once,, is that a americanized marsielles ? like the true marsielles or changed ?

for i recall a good size book that came with the packages, and if that is a marsielles deck then that is the only english (that i know off) book written for it,, might be worth it for me to go find it again,, if that is a true marsielles ?

**jmd** · 04-03-2003

Holmes, the deck called 'Tarot Classic' is a replica of a Swiss Schaffhouse deck, similar, but not the same, as a Marseilles (for example, both legs of the Hanged Man are straight and tied). The book (with the same title) is a good introduction to Tarot, but would probably not be very helpful in terms of what we are talking about here.

Incidentally, the Schaffhouse/Classic is my main reading deck...

Moongold · 05-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by jmd
... and a little PS to Moongold - the next Melbourne Tarot Café will focus on the Celtic Cross - and possibly other spreads will come into it - so I'll have to give actual demonstrations of on-the-spot readings...

Yea, JMD.........! Saturdays at present are difficult but I am determined to get along there soon. I look forward to meeting you.

Your reverence and awe for the Tarot is shared by we Phillistines (

)who haven't yet been able to learn the Marseilles or who for some reason choose not to just yet. The paths of learning are simply different and that is wonderful.

The discussions of the history of Tarot here and Diana's elegant regard for the European perspectives are what led me to the TS Bookshop last week.

By the way, they usually do have at least a few Marseilles decks in stock. Some other soul had got in ahead of me. They had samples for people to look at.

Blessings

Moongold

PS I didn't list modesty as one of your attributes because I thought it might go to your head

Diana · 05-03-2003

Here I am quoting someone, but I don't know who, so if anyone recognises these words, please come and claim them:

"The Marseilles Tarot is quite unburdened with any self-conscious symbolism. There is no attempt to make the cards conform to a particular individual's metaphysical or psychological theory."

That is another reason for studying the Marseilles deck. It is perhaps the most neutral of all decks.

**Lee** · 05-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Diana
Here I am quoting someone, but I don't know who, so if anyone recognises these words, please come and claim them:

"The Marseilles Tarot is quite unburdened with any self-conscious symbolism. There is no attempt to make the cards conform to a particular individual's metaphysical or psychological theory."

That is another reason for studying the Marseilles deck. It is perhaps the most neutral of all decks.

I believe that's from Sallie Nichols's book, Jung and Tarot (the only book in English I know of which discusses the symbolism of the Marseilles deck).

-- Lee

Khatruman · 05-03-2003

Ok... Ok... Ok....

Trying really hard to get into the essence of each card, which is why I find myself buying decks of different perspectives. I do have a Marseilles deck by Grimaud, which I bought maybe 20 years ago. I pull it out and it just doesn't speak to me. I find the art to be rather juvenile.

I would love to have a Marseilles deck to study with that would be aesthetically brilliant. Could someone, perhaps jmd or Diana, please recommend a Marseilles deck that is vibrant???? Just point me to some pics.. and maybe I will delve finally into that Historical section of the forums..*s*...

ihcoyc · 05-03-2003

I appreciate the Marseilles deck deeply, but I am not a fundamentalist for it.

For those who find the Marseilles deck aesthetically less than appealing, I would recommend one of the Italian engraved decks. My personal favourite is the Ancient Italian Tarot --- by and large, the symbolism of the Majors and the attitudes of the court cards are interpretations of the Marseilles deck --- but the whole thing has been redesigned and some may find it more attractive. It is still rather old-fashioned.

The Fournier Marseilles is to the Grimaud Marseilles rather as the Universal Waite is to the U.S. Games Rider-Waite. It has been redone as paintings rather than flat colours and line art.

Frankly, I wouldn't so much be eager that you own something called a "Tarot of Marseilles" so much as that you own a free deck, free of agendas and someone else's esoteric or eccentric interpretations, but rather is based on the traditions older than those. The Marseilles deck is one of the easiest ways to get a free deck; it is not the only option.

Diana · 05-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
I believe that's from Sallie Nichols's book, Jung and Tarot (the only book in English I know of which discusses the symbolism of the Marseilles deck).
-- Lee

Thanks Lee. Although I've never read that book, so either she quoted someone else, or the person that I got it from quoted her. Such is life on the internet - words go round and round and in the end no-one knows who wrote them anymore.

HOLMES CLARIFIER OF LIGHT Join Date: 31 May 2002 Location: ontario Posts: 4,597	a question i did have the classic tarot by stuart kaplan once,, is that a americanized marsielles ? like the true marsielles or changed ? for i recall a good size book that came with the packages, and if that is a marsielles deck then that is the only english (that i know off) book written for it,, might be worth it for me to go find it again,, if that is a true marsielles ? __________________ "For if a man can become a monster, then a monster can become a man. "

04-03-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #13

Khatruman Citizen Join Date: 11 Oct 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,552	Ok... Ok... Ok.... Trying really hard to get into the essence of each card, which is why I find myself buying decks of different perspectives. I do have a Marseilles deck by Grimaud, which I bought maybe 20 years ago. I pull it out and it just doesn't speak to me. I find the art to be rather juvenile. I would love to have a Marseilles deck to study with that would be aesthetically brilliant. Could someone, perhaps jmd or Diana, please recommend a Marseilles deck that is vibrant???? Just point me to some pics.. and maybe I will delve finally into that Historical section of the forums..s... __________________ "Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed."--C.S. Lewis

05-03-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #18

ihcoyc Citizen Join Date: 07 Sep 2002 Location: The Bastille Posts: 803	I appreciate the Marseilles deck deeply, but I am not a fundamentalist for it. For those who find the Marseilles deck aesthetically less than appealing, I would recommend one of the Italian engraved decks. My personal favourite is the Ancient Italian Tarot --- by and large, the symbolism of the Majors and the attitudes of the court cards are interpretations of the Marseilles deck --- but the whole thing has been redesigned and some may find it more attractive. It is still rather old-fashioned. The Fournier Marseilles is to the Grimaud Marseilles rather as the Universal Waite is to the U.S. Games Rider-Waite. It has been redone as paintings rather than flat colours and line art. Frankly, I wouldn't so much be eager that you own something called a "Tarot of Marseilles" so much as that you own a free deck, free of agendas and someone else's esoteric or eccentric interpretations, but rather is based on the traditions older than those. The Marseilles deck is one of the easiest ways to get a free deck; it is not the only option. __________________ Le beau valet de coeur et la dame de pique Causent sinistrement de leurs amours défunts. __________________ Baudelaire

05-03-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #19

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	I had written an earlier reply to some of the comments, and it somehow got cyberlost (maybe the wormed-hole ate it)... I have, in what follows, not addressed everyone's comments - I'll try to redress this later. As to the Melbourne shops - and the TS in particular - not currently having Marseilles decks in stock, I'm shocked. Try Esoteric Bookshop in Hawthorn, or Celebrations Metaphysical in Croydon Hills, or the Steiner Store in Kew. Failing that, the new Lygon Street Borders opposite that great Melbourne Bookshop Readings, or some of the numerous smaller new-age shops around the place are bound to have a few! _______________ I suppose that the historical seniority of the deck isn't really at issue, for others may - though I personally doubt it - be more ancient (such as the Visconti Sforza). The point is that the Marseille provides the root to those other decks which have emerged, provides, so to speak, the essence of determining Tarot as Tarot: deviate too much from Marseille iconography, and you've exited Tarot domain. The artwork of the Marseilles has, in more than one way, been updated a number of times - the Camoin, Hadar and Marteau (Grimaud) are but three 20th century examples. The 'updates', however, seek to maintain those characteristics which are essential to the deck, and neither add nor subtract from the deck - each of those three decks mentioned (and, of course, other Marseilles) do this in mildly different ways. But I also realise that the kind of 'update' implied seeks to possibly change the very nature of the image to something more 'modern': what is a High Priestess in modern society? If this question can still be asked, however, the image has served its purpose, for it remains understood - and I specifically mention this particular card for even in Renaissance times, and though its society was image, or rather, iconographically rich, much of Tarot's images were not as common as may at first be presumed. I agree with Holmes that mastery of any deck will become the basis for understanding other decks. This is surely an argument for the very careful selection of that deck which one will seek to master - for its specifics will colour others. Here again, the Marseille stands alone: no specific individuals (as in the Visconti-Sforza) nor particular astrological, elemental or kabbalistic associations mar the image. These other and important considerations may therefore be allocated in various proper ways by various individuals on the various pathways towards the horizon of mastery. The Etteilla has been (and thanks for mentioning it and that site, Macavity), in many ways and until the 20th century, very much the main modified esoteric deck on the continent of Europe, much like the RWCS has been in the 20th century. Each, however, is accurate as Tarot to the extent they have similarities to the Marseilles. Their peculiar deviations - though wonderful for further related study - is also their weakness as Tarot. If this is the case, it again makes for the study of the Marseilles as crucially important, even if seemingly (& it is only an appearance) excruciatingly difficult for some. With regards to Moongold's astute observations, and her *partial* listing of some of those qualities she has carefully observed - such that I am witty, delightful, knowledgeable, friendly, sensitive and aware man (my humblest apologies if I've omitted some other observed important attributes) - my other virtue (obviously omitted for no apparent reason) of pious modesty prevents me from making further comments With Kaz, my main Tarot reading deck is actually not a Marseilles (though in my case, one which is closely related). I suppose that when I joined this site, I decided for various reasons that I would not do any full readings (as with any decision, however, it may be periodically reviewed - which I will therefore do). I have, however, made a (small) number of direct contributions to possible interpretations of other's readings, and the meaning of various cards in isolation, in combination and in certain positions. For example, one recent one which comes to mind is firemaiden's choice of three musical pieces, and another is in the thread 'Right after the WTC attack'. Certainly anyone with a certain amount of experience and background knowledge may see in the cards certain aspects others may have difficulties seeing, and some of us wonderful story tellers will weave a meaningful whole from the separate cards more easily - but an accurate reading will depend on its accuracy not from these skills (which may only aide), but from the open disposition of the reader at the specific time, whether the reader be 'experienced' or be a 'beginner' (we are all the latter in some ways). The awe Diana mentions is, in my view, the first step. Awe and reverence. ... and a little PS to Moongold - the next Melbourne Tarot Café will focus on the Celtic Cross - and possibly other spreads will come into it - so I'll have to give actual demonstrations of on-the-spot readings...

04-03-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #12

Diana Citizen Join Date: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 8,213	Here I am quoting someone, but I don't know who, so if anyone recognises these words, please come and claim them: "The Marseilles Tarot is quite unburdened with any self-conscious symbolism. There is no attempt to make the cards conform to a particular individual's metaphysical or psychological theory." That is another reason for studying the Marseilles deck. It is perhaps the most neutral of all decks.

05-03-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #16

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