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Etteilla Timeline and Etteilla card Variants - background

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Temperature !


Trying again...

This time perhaps...

Cheers,
Sumada
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Not to distract, but 1876 version Jeu des Princesse version, majors


which appears in Robert Place's curated exhibit of Tarot images in Los Angeles 2010 and his art catalog...there are also some images at the Tarotgarden.com site from the owner of this deck

The $50 book to buy from Robert Place's site might only be of interest only for the Jeu des Princesse version--but this does not show all the cards. The book does have the majors of a line drawing 1876 Jeu des Princesse version of "Etteilla" patterns...Again, this is only noted here to show a variant of a 'Grand Etteilla', not a true "Etteilla" deck. There are six cards in sample if the variant adds to the discussion.

I do not have further samples to show on this, and somewhat limited resources (as you are all discussing more detail and I lack any version of the Etteilla original text. ) But as a deck sample, this might be of interest.
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Thanks, Huck. I was trying to pull up those images myself off of trionfi.com and not succeeding.

The first deck you linked to is an Etteilla II, also known as a "Lismon," no earlier than c. 1838 and probably much later, not 18th century. I will do a post on the differences between Etteilla I and Etteilla II when I am finished reviewing Etteilla I styles. There are many.

The second group of decks are apparently Etteilla I, yet considerably modified from the original of 1789. The second one on that link is the modern Etteilla, identical to that posted on tarot.com (in Kaplan, p. 407), the one I am calling "Etteilla Id." The first one I am not sure about. It may be the one in Kaplan vol.2 p. 403, which I call "Etteilla Ic."I will look at it more closely when I have time, to see if it is really the same. I am happy to see it in color.

There are several versions of Etteilla I; so far, I have found four in addition to the original of 1789, plus one that reproduces the third but with English as well as French keywords (perhaps it should be called Etteilla Ice, e for English). Probably there are more. That is why I need to study the link and others.

About the extra numbers on the cards, Sumada, besides the German deck c. 1793 in Kaplan, they occur in the copy of the original 1789 deck that is shown in Decker et al, plate 3, and described specifically in their chapter on Etteilla; I gave the reference and posted both sets of images, in posts 29 and 31 on this thread. The lack of them in the Grimaud (I mean the deck on tarot.com, since Grimaud probably published several different ones, such as the one Huck linked to) is one of many ways in which it does not accurately reproduce the original 1789 cards. If it was a printer's error, it seems odd that one of Etteilla's close disciples would take care to reproduce it in his German edition of the deck. The numbers are even clearer there than in the original 1789 cards.

Meanwhile, since there are many Etteilla decks, I think I will go on and describe three more, all Etteilla I. I am trying to go in chronological order.

I will designate the next one Etteilla Ib; it is in Kaplan vol. 2 p. 400, dated by Decker et al to 1826. I posted some examples from it earlier. It differs from the 1789 cards in the following respects. First, outside of the picture frame there are no astrological signs, identifications of elements or days of creation, or other numbers other than the card number. “Etteilla Ib” gives us a stripped-down model. Also, the Upright words on card #1 are “L’homme pour qui on consulte” instead of “Questionnant”; these same words are repeated on the Reversed. Presumably card 8 ise the same, except for saying “La femme” instead of “L’Homme.” Another difference is that on card 9, the Reversed word is “La Justice” again, rather than 1789’s “Le Legiste.”

The pictures on the cards are the same, except that in many are written in script what appear to be titles that someone has given the cards. Kaplan deciphers them, and I think they are useful for what they say about how both the Etteilla and its Marseille equivalents were viewed at the time, in some circles. They are as follows, in his order ( I have added the corresponding Marseille card, for ease of identification by the reader and also for what I want to say next):

4. Depouillement/Air (Deprivation/Air; Marseille Star): La Piscina (the pool).
5. Voyage/Terre (Voyage/Earth): Marseille World): L’Evangile (the evangelist).
9. La Justice/La Justice: Saloman (Solomon).
10. La Temperance/Le Pretre (Temperance/Priest; Marseille Temperance): L’Ange de l’Apocalypse (the Angel of the Apocalypse), with “Thot” on the winged woman’s waistband.
11. La Force/Le Souverain (Strength/Sovereign; Marseille Strength): David, with “Thot” on the lady’s dress. (A lion is at her feet.)
12. La Prudence/Le Peuple (Prudence/The People; Marseille Hanged Man): Moyse (Moses), and “Thot” on her dress. She carries Aaron’s rod, a tau cross twined by two serpents.
13. Mariage/Union (Marriage/Union; Marseille Lover): Le Grand Pretre (the High Priest).
15. Maladie/Maladie (Sickness/Sickness; Marseille Bateleur): Aaron. (The card shows a magician holding his wand over a table to his right.)
53. Espion/Imprevue: (Spy/The Unexpected; Page of Swords): Le Soldat Allemand (the German soldier)
63. Extreme/Grossesse (Extreme/Pregnancy; Ace of Swords): L’epee de St. Pierre (the Sword of St. Peter).
23. Femme de Campagne/Bonne Femme (Country Woman/Good Woman; Queen of Batons): La Reine de France (Queen of France).
35. Naissance/Chute (Birth/Failure; Ace of Batons): La Verge de Moise (the staff of Moses).
36. Homme Blond/Homme en Place (Blond Man/Man of Rank; King of Cups): Le Pape (the Pope).
37. Femme Blonde/ Femme en Place (Blonde Woman/Woman of Rank; Queen of Cups): La Papesse (the Popess).
40. La Ville/Courreux (the city, wrath; 10 of Cups): Les dix Coupes ou Carreaux (10 Cups or Diamonds).
47. Reussite/Expedition (success/expedition; 3 of Cups): no words, but an Arabic numeral 3 between the lower two cups.
64. Homme Brun/Homme Vicieux (dark man, vicious man; King of Coins): Le Soudan d’Egypte (The Sudan of Egypt).
68. La Maison/Lotterie (House, lottery; 10 of Coins): Les dix Ecu ou Coers (the 10 Coins or Hearts).
78. Folie/Folie (Folly/Folly; Marseille Fool): L’Alchimiste ou le fou (The Alchemist or the fool).

Kaplan comments that the designer is trying to identify the suit of cups with Diamonds and the suit of Coins with Hearts. I would add: Perhaps the identification follows the association Courreux = Carreaux. Also, identifying Batons with France and Swords with Germany follows a tradition in which the suits were identified with particular countries (but I don’t remember how it went). Making the King and Queen of Cups into the Pope and the Popess follows a tradition (articulated early in the 18th century) in which Cups was identified with the clergy. Some titles suggest what might have already been interpretations of the Marseille cards: Justice with Solomon, famous for his wise judicial decisions; Temperance with the Apocalypse, for which one needs the Eucharist; the Magician with Aaron.

Associating Temperance with the “Angel of the Apocalypse” might help explain why 14 might have been considered a “sign of death,” as that number was called as it appeared on card 13 of the 1789, one of five cards 13-17 with this characteristic. (See a previous post of mine, two back. Likewise giving “Magician” to Moses’ brother Aaron is putting the Bateleur on a rather high level, as a conduit of God’s grace and punishment. Here are the two cards, for your examination.



An odd thing about this deck’s Folie, in contrast to the earlier German deck’s card and the Grimaud (on tarot.com), which I presume is faithful in this regard to the 1789, is that there is no clearly discernible animal next to him, but rather a Salvador-Dali-type image that can be seen in different ways, as grass and bushes or as an animal (in this case, apparently a leopard!). Below are all three versions; left to right, they are 1826, 1793, and presumably a restored 1789). You will notice the “0” that occurs in addition to the “78” on the Grimaud, a feature that has already been pointed out on this thread.

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Here is the google link to the 1920 Ernest Kurtzahn book with Etteilla images


Mr. Kurtzahn was a freemason and while you probably linked the Etteilla tarot with hermetic students/scholars, perhaps this link to more modern thinkers would be of interest as a chain in the links to Etteilla variants, as well

http://www.internetloge.de/etkt/etkt.htm

You can run it through the google translation to English to get a gist of the meanngs and posted information. While the Jeu de Princesse samples I posted earlier was another variant, you could see the mixing of the Grand Etteilla and the Jeu de Princesse in the pattern in this link to Mr. Kurtzahn's 1922 images--only reproduced in the book, as far it is known.



Best wishes on your excellent weaving of diverse threads.

Cerulean
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Here is a fuller account of the third post-1789 version of Etteilla I that I've found, in Kaplan's vol. 2 p. 403. It corresponds closely to images that Huck linked to, a 1910 Grimaud version, the first deck presented in this link.

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm

However the date that Kaplan suggests is quite earlier than 1910 (Kaplan says
"mid to late ninetenth century"). It wouldn't be the first time Kaplan was wrong in his dating. Or Huck's is simply a 1910 reissue of an earlier publication.

The version on trionfi.com has its Ace of Batons with "Naissance" as upright. That is characteristic of every Etteilla I that I have surveyed. (But Etteilla II and III have "Naissance" down.) Cerulean has suggested (if I understand correctly) that some Grimaud Etteilla Is go one way (19th century, "Naissance" down), some the other (20th century, "Naissance" up). I will not be convinced of the existence of a "Naissance down" Etteilla I until I see one. Unfortunately Kaplan doesn't include the Ace of Batons in his "nineteenth century" samples. So I can't say whether the Etteilla I on trionfi.com is the same or different than the one I describe below, which I provisionally call "Etteilla Ic." Given the cards available for comparison, I haven't found any differences.

(I wrote what follows yesterday but wasn't ready to post it until I had fixed the one before it.)

The third “Etteilla I” in Kaplan Vol. 2, which I will call “Etteilla Ic,” is the one he reproduces in part on p. 403; he says it is from the "mid to late 19th century." I do not see that Decker et al discuss it. It might be the predecessor of the modern Grimaud. It differs from the 1789 in that card 1 adds a radiant sun in the middle of what was just blank space in 1789; it puts clothes on the small figures of card 14, the Force Majeur; and it has the script specifying element numbers and day of creation numbers on both top and bottom (whereas the 1789 has them only at the top). It also does not include the extra numbers on cards 13-17 of the 1789. Like the 1789, however, it reproduces faithfully the astrological signs on cards 1-12 and the top writing in script indicating the element number and the day of creation, with the same abbreviations. In all these regards--where it is the same and where it is different from the 1789--it is the same as the modern Grimaud on tarot.com (of which 20 cards are in Kaplan p. 409). But differently from the Grimaud, this deck’s keywords are faithful to the 1789 deck, as far as Kaplan and Decker et al reveal them.

Kaplan’s Vol. 1, p. 252, has another version of this deck, this one with keywords in both French and English. It is the “Grand Etteilla Egyptian Gypsies Tarot,” published by J. M. Simon, France. Its keywords (only the French, of course) look faithful to the 1789 deck, and the pictures have the same discrepancies as the other deck just mentioned.
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My 1890 Lismon Etteilla is Chute is upright


and my 1900 - 1910 Grimaud Etteilla is Naissance upright and Chute is reversed.

Mike H wrote:
Cerulean has suggested (if I understand correctly) that some Grimaud Etteilla Is go one way (19th century, "Naissance" down), some the other (20th century, "Naissance" up). I will not be convinced of the existence of a "Naissance down" Etteilla I until I see one. "


Please point out to me where you got the impression that I said this about the Grimaud Grand Etteilla of 1900-1910? I really would like to correct that posting, because I believe that you have a mistaken impression. Or perhaps your impression comes from how I am referring to my decks? I'll explain below.

Your terminology and mine could be different because I am distinguishing the decks by their publisher and date--Lismon Etteilla 1890, for instance and Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900 to 1910.

I have posted in other times about what the card dealer Wolfgang Kunze said of my Lismon Etteillas that the card designs on the Lismon might be even earlier than 1890--as Grimaud supposedly bought the warehoused Lismon decks and the date stamp of 1890 was required for decks in that time period.

I tried to be very clear in all my posts recently of referencing my 1890 Lismon Etteillas differently than my 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteillas. That is why I suggested specifically to others to buy the Jeu des Dames bilingual edition of the Editions Dusserre deck where Chute is upright in the instructions--because it matches the earlier 1890 Lismon Etteillas.

I am not certain, but I think you bought the Jeu des Dames bilingual edition of the Editions Dusserre that I tried to recommend to people previously--(although you didn't describe it to me that way in your pm, so I was uncertain of what you bought)--because of what I said about the Chute as upright, which matches the Lismon Etteillas of 1890.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...94&postcount=2

My link to the 1900 to 1910 Grimaud Etteilla and any commentary I made in all the posts that I am aware of is that my 1900 to 1910 Grimaud Etteilla was that Naissance was upright and this is opposite of the 1890 Lismon Etteilla.

My discussion for the 1890 Lismon Etteilla posts span more than a few years in this forum-- but the upright Chute for the 1890 Lismon Etteilla was clear in my mind. If I am unclear in my references to my 1890 Lismon Etteillas, please let me correct the impression. My copies of my 1890 Lismon Etteillas have Chute as upright.

Because there are many early posts--some 7.000 for some of us-- where it is easy to see our earlier information were mistaken as we learned or not as clear as we should have been. I am hopeful that what I posted seems clear.


Regards,

Cerulean
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Good. We agree. I wasn't sure what you meant--that's why I said "(if I understand correctly)." You wrote:
Quote:
The designs of the circa 1900 Grimaud Grand Etteilla and the 1890 Lismon Grand Etteilla have design variations, but that too hard for me to address right now. But here is a dating hint: if your copy of the 1890 Lismon tarots has an Ace of Wands with the upright meaning as Chute/Fall and the reversed meaning of Naissance/Birth--then you will see that the Editions Dusserre copy of the Julia Orsini text agrees with some of our (Aeclectic members) own 1890 copies of the Lismon card design... and subsequent circa 1900 Grimaud Grand Etteilla instructions and designs has changed or corrected the Ace of Wands so it matches Papus Divinatory Tarot, Waite's Key to the Tarot, etc.
Since you said that "the designs of the circa 1900 Grimaud Grand Etteilla...have design variations" and "subsequent 1900 Grimaud Grand Etteilla instructions and designs has changed or corrected the Ace of Wands" I thought that maybe you meant that the pre-1900 Grimaud Grand Etteillas were different than after c. 1900. I wasn't sure. Thanks for the quick clarification. I'm relieved. It would be a mess otherwise.

So now I will conclude my survey of Etteilla I versions. After tomorrow morning I'm not going to have much time for posting for a few days.

My final “Etteilla I” (Kaplan vol 2 p. 409), which I will call “Etteilla Id,” is the modern Grimaud, which Kaplan says is “contemporary.” In most respects it is similar to the previous deck, my “Etteilla 1c,” in having the sun on card 1, the clothes on card 14, and the astrological signs, the elements, and the days of creation outside the frame, appearing just as they did in 1789 but now on the bottom as well as the top of the card. In one respect, however, it is a huge departure from earlier decks: the keywords are in very many cases not the same as in 1789 or any early decks that I can find. Other decks departed in a few cases; but this one really goes overboard.

That in itself does not mean it is not faithful to Etteilla’s teachings, if the words are traditional ones, drawn from either of the two lists published by his disciples, or ones like them. So let us see if that is so. Here are the first 36, interrupted occasionally with my comments. First comes the Grimaud keywords, then whether they are in the word-lists, and finally what the original keywords were in 1789, as far as I can determine.

1. Ideal/Sagesse (Wisdom). Both are in the Julia Orsini synonym list, but not Papus’s. God is there, too, which perhaps explains the sun on the card. 1789: Etteilla/Questionnant.

2. Eclaircissement/passion. Both are in both lists.. 1789: Eclaircissement/Feu (fire).

3. Discussion/Instablite. Upright: Discours is close, as is Propos. Rev., not there. 1789: Propos (design)/Eau (water).

4. Revelation/Maniere d’Etre (manner of being). Upr., no. Rev. has “Maniere” by itself. 1789: Depouillement (Privation)/Air.

5. Voyage/Biens Rurales (Country properties). Both there. 1789: Voyage/Terre.

6. Secrets/Verites (Truths). In the lists we have: “en secret” and ”verite.” 1789: Nuit/Jour.

7. Appui (support)/Protection. Both there. 1789: Appui/Protection.

8. Tenacite/Progres. Neither there. 1789: Etteilla/Questionnante.

What we have so far: the designer does not find the words for the four elements useful any longer. Nor the 7 days of creation. Nor male and female querent. Instead, he will go to the word-lists and get primarily words describing personal and especially psychological characteristics of typical modern human beings. When he does not find what he wants, he apparently makes up his own keywords (unless someone knows of a source). And in general, he picks positive words rather than negative ones. Of his innovations so far (12 of them out of 16, only one is negative, “Instability.” And only one might be construed as non-personal: “country properties”—unless, of course, it refers to properties owned by the querent or someone of his or her acquaintance.

9. Justice/Legislature. Both there. 1789: Justice/Legiste.

10. Temperance/Conviction. Upr. there. Rev. not there. 1789: Temperance/Le Pretre.

11. Force/Pouvoir (Power). Upr. there. Rev. “pouvoir supreme.” 1789: Force/Souverain.

12. Prudence/Popularite. Upr: there. Rev. not there; closest is “population.” 1789: Prudence/Le Peuple.

In these “four cardinal virtues” it is clear that our designer is continuing to go for adjectives about personality rather than institutions, except in one case, Justice.

13. Mariage/Liaison. Upr., there. Rev: exact word not there, just “alliage,” alliance, plus a lot of negative things like incest, adultery, and concubinage. “Liaison” is a less judgmental word for a sexual relationship that not quite licit. 1789: Mariage/Union.

14. Violence/Faiblesse (weakness). Both are in the lists. 1789: Force Majeur/Force Majeur.

15. Maladie (sickness)/Chagrins (sorrow). Both there. 1789: Maladie/Maladie.

16. Opinion/Arbitrage (arbitration). Both there, although not typical; synonyms stress good judgment vs. bad judgment. 1789: Jugement/Jugement.

17. Deces (Death)/Incapacite. Upr: ok. Rev: closest is paralyse, but psychologically. 1789: Mortalite/Neant (nothingness).

18. Trahison (betrayal)/Faussete (falsehood). Both there, although rev. has hermits, related to the picture. 1789: Traitre/Traitre.

19. Misere/Prison. Both there, although words more various. 1789: Misere/Prison.

20. Fortune/Augmentation. Both ok. 1789: Fortune/Augmentation.

21. Proces (lawsuit)/Litige (legal dispute). Upr: not there. Rev: there, among a variety of other meanings. 1789: Dissension/Dissension.

You can see how the designer has introduced more variety into the words, and also avoided religiously tinged associations like “judgment” and “hermit.” I’m not sure why he sticks to such a narrow view of #21; perhaps the other words sounded religious. Now I will go through the suit of Batons, which goes through the four courts, King through Valet, and then 10 through Ace.

22. Probity/Indulgence. Both there, but lists have more variety. 1789: Homme de Campagne/Homme Bon et Severe. (Man of the Country, Good and Severe Man.)

23. Virtue/Devoument (devoted). Both there, among others. 1789: Femme de Campagne/Bonne Femme.

24. Change/Separation. Both there, among others. 1789: Depart/Desunion.

25. Originalite/Nouvelle (news). Upr: not there, but “suprenant” (surprising) is close. Rev. there. 1789: Etranger (Stranger)/Nouvelle.

26. Lies/Obstacle. Both there. 1789: Trahison (betrayal)/Obstacle.

27. Retard (delay)/Infortune (misfortune). Both there. 1789: Retard/Traverses (delay/crossing).

28. Repentir/Rejouissance (repent/rejoicing). Both there, but reversed. 1789: Campagne/Disputes Intestines.

29. Pourparlers (negotiations)/Indecision. Both there. 1789: same.

30. Domestiques/Attente (servants/expectation). Both there. 1789: same.

31. Opulence/Proces (opulance/Trial). Both there. 1789: Or (gold)/Proces.

32. Contrat/Prosperite. Upr: In Papus but not Orsini. Rev. there. 1789: Societe/Prosperite.

33. Enterprises/Fin de Tracas (end of worries). Both there. 1789: Enterprise, Fin de Peine (end of pain).

34. Chagrin/Surprises. Both there, but Rev. has more negative words than positive. 1789: Chagrin/Surprise.

35. Naissance/Faillete (birth/bankruptcy). Both there, but lists have more variety. 1789: Naissance/Chute (fall).

In general, our designer tends to avoid associations to the countryside and uses both Papus (no. 32) and Orsini (no. 1). He often picks atypical words; the word-lists go in more directions. I don’t know why he reversed the meanings in 28, from what is in both “Orsini’s” and Papus’s lists. In general he sticks closer to the originals than he did in the trumps.

I assume that these generalizations apply to the other suits, but I haven’t checked, except for Coins. There I notice that he avoids Etteilla’s associations to hair/skin color, which must come from the suit-colors in ordinary cards; we have to keep in mind that a shortened regular deck with 32 cards was his original basis for the keywords.

Decker et al’s pictures of the 1789 cards did not include any of the suit of Coins, which Etteilla associated with the seven planets, the north and south nodes, and the part of fortune. In tarot.com’s presentation of all 10 of these cards, we can see diagrams for the non-planetary assignments and appropriate little figures at the bottom of the cards assigned to the planets. Their astrological symbols appear inside the coins in the upper part of the card.

Surprisingly to me, the Etteilla meanings do relate to attributions that I know for the planets, primarily in the Reverseds. Saturn, as the planet of melancholia, is associated with “inquietude,” anxiety; Jupiter, with ambition (and in the Uprights, the deck designer drops Etteilla’s “le present” for a word not in any of the lists, “Entourage” (surroundings); and Mars goes with “Incondute” (Misconduct), although more in the sense of discord.

The next, 74, has the Moon symbol and the meaning “obstruction.” In the lists, and the original keywords, “cloture” (enclosure) is primary, like a circle, as in the moon going around the earth, by the 18th century, the only heavenly body that did so. Obstruction is there, but very secondary. Some of the secondary Uprights relate more to the Moon: lunar medicine, white stone.

Then we have Venus and Celebrite (fame)/Mediocrite. The Reverseds lists have “enfant” (child) as primary, which is Etteilla’s keyword: “mediocrite” is in the list, but it derives from childish adult traits: purility, weakness. Venus is not especially known as a mother, but from the Renaissance on, she was often portrayed with her child Cupid. She also associates to the upright, Fame, to be sure.

Mercury, god of communication, has “lettre”—and an alchemical illustration with his astrological sign. Mercury was the key transformative agent in alchemy.

Then come the Sun and riches, of course, and “Parfaite Contentement” in the upright.

So there is much correlation between the planets as arranged by Etteilla and the keywords in the suit of Coins, mainly in the Reverseds, most of it retained by the Grimaud.

Then there is the issue of Masonic symbolism, etc., in Batons. I don’t know anything about that, nor do I think I need to for what we are doing now. Hopefully if and when I get the LWB I will be more informed.

I feel better about the modern Grimaud now than before I checked out the keywords against the old "Orsini" and Papus word-lists. The deck both modernizes the keywords and retains what was already there, in the word-lists of his disciples. Etteilla's own keywords were of his time, and from cartomantic traditions before his time.

However the question of how important they thought it was to use the whole lists is in doing Etteilla deck readings, as opposed to using only keywords, has yet to be discussed. That's where comparing the "Julia Orsini" books and booklets I think will shed some light.

I feel ready to move onto to the Etteilla II decks, unless someone has something to discuss about Etteilla I. Before comparing the "Julia Orsini" texts, I want to make sure we are clear on what characterizes these decks, for which the books and booklets were written.
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Here's A, B, C, D, E translation versions of the booklets


MikeH says

We now have a number of readily accessible "Julia Orsini" texts to look at (as well as at least 4 decks: Etteillas I, II, and III, plus the post-1900 version of the II). The texts are

(1) My 1838 Julia Orsini, 212 pp, that has engravings of the Etteilla II cards.

(2) Your 1890 Julia Orsini, 78 pp., that comes with an Etteilla II deck attributed to "Lismon." (Cerulean's note: she refers to this as "B")

(3) Your c.1900 (Mike H's wording) "Julia Orsini" booklet (about 78 pp.?) with slightly different wording than the 1890, that comes with the Grimaud "Grand Etteilla" deck (also Etteilla II?).

Cerulean's note: I know what booklet you are talking about, but actually let me be more specific. I have typed the Ace of Wands text from B.P. Grimaud booklet that accompanies the Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-1910 and referred to this as "C". I have also typed the Ace of Wands text from the J.Simon 1969 booklet that came with the Grimaud Grand Etteilla reproduction and referred to it as "D." I also typed the Ace of Wands text from the J.Simon 1977 booklet that came with the Grimaud Grand Etteilla reproduction deck and referred to it as "E.".

MikeH says:

(4) A booklet, possibly attributed to Julia Orsini (I was not sure from your post, nor of how many pages), that came with the Jeu des Dames (Etteilla III) deck, originally put out by Editions Dessures and now available as a bilingual booklet that comes with the Jeu des Dames deck sold at Bear's Lair.
(Cerulean's note: she refers to this as "A" and has presented it first, as this is an English text that seems closest to the 1890 Lismon Etteilla booklet.)

MikeH says:
If this list is correct, I will look forward to samples from your (2), that I can compare with my (1). A sample from (3) showing the different wording would be of interest to me. I will try to obtain (4) for myself, from Bear's Lair, if I have understood correctly what I should be getting.


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Cerulean's note
Mike H. now has the Editions Dusserre Jeu des Dames booklet that has the wording she find closest to the 1890 Lismon Etteilla text. Here is a sample for Card 35 - Mike H. lists it as option 4 above:


A. Undated circa 2000
Editions Dusserre
(unnamed translator)

P. 59 English translation

No 35 - Ace of Wands

A complete rout, a fire or serious illness are predicted by this card, but you will more likely than not escape everything that threatens you. Alongside no 19, it speaks of the danger of enslavement after being defeated by enemies under whose power you risk falling. If the card is drawn for a young lady, she must be careful to check if n. 40 accompanies this card, because love could make her fall in a trap that is in danger for her morals and reputation.

Inverted, this card is a sign of birth. It announces to you and yours a long line of descendents if it is associated with n. 11. Some outstanding personages will be in this line, if instead of n. 11, it is n. 14 that is beside. Alongside n. 39, it announces your descendents will commit one of the seven deadly sins, greed in particular.

Egyptians named this card the rod of Moses and regarded it as always auspicious when the right way up.

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Mike H wanted a sample of the "Julia Orsini" text from the booklet that came with the Lismon Etteilla 1890, listed as #2 above:


B. Lismon Etteilla 1890

P. 35

N. 35.

Chute - Naissance

As de Baton ou de Carreau.

Une deroute complee, le feu, ou une maladie serieuse vous sont predis par ce tarot; mais vous echapperez certainement a tout ce qui vous meace.

Cote a cote avec le n.19, elle doit faire craindre l'esclavage apres avoir ete vaincu par des ennemis au pouvoir desquels on tumbera.

Reversee, cette carte est un signe de naissance; elle annouce a vous et au votres une longue posterite si elle se rencontre avec le n. 11.

Aupres du n. 39, elle annonce que vos descendents pencheront vers un des sept peches capiteaux, mais particulierement vers la gourmandise.

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I have typed the French text below of what MikeH said is #3, that is text from the Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-1910.

In my mind, I believe that I indicated that the wording of the text by B.P. Grimaud is distinctly different than the 1890 Lismon Etteilla, but didn't give specifics to 'how different' from the Grimaud 1900-1910-1920? text could be from the 1890 Lismon Etteilla --I just said the wording looks different. In this case of the meaning for number 35, it seems MUCH more than just "a little different" to the 1890 Lismon Etteilla 'Art of Drawing the Cards.'

I keep thinking as I write that I am being quite specific on that the 1890 Lismon Etteilla and 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla differ--but showing how different they may be depends on what details we are discussing.

I find the Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-1910-1920? as distinctly different from the 1890 Lismon Etteilla because their coloring, card details, and original publishers are different. The two decks may share the pattern name of Etteilla II, but close examination seems to bring out their distinctive differences to me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The text that follows are for three Grimaud booklets for the Grimaud Grand Etteilla deck, all dated according to their editions:

C. 1900-1910 (1920?) Grimaud Grand Etteilla

B.P. Grimaud

P.79-80

N.35 LA VERGE DE MOISE

Vous aurez tres certainement un enfant

Aupres du n. 14, cette carte announe que vous aurez un enfant illiegitime.

Mais si la carte est renversee, l'enfant que vous aurez espere ne naitra point.

Aupres du n. 17, ce tarot presage la mort d'un enfant qui vous touche.

Aupre du n. 11, ce tarot annonce une maladie. Defiez-vous de medcin qui vous ordonne les sansues; il faut vous purifier le sang, mais no vous l'oter.

Aupres du n. 39, ce tarot indique des insomnies. On vous ordonnera e l'opium, n'en prenez pas inconsiderement.

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Below gives a close English translation to the 1900-1910 Grimaud Etteilla booklet.

D. Grimaud Grand Etteilla
English booklet copyright 1969 by J.Simon

P. 53

N. 35
The Rod of Moses

You will certainly get a child

Next n. 14, this card predicts that the child will be illegitimate.

If n. 35 is upside down, it means that the child you hoped for will not be born.

Next n. 17, this n. 35 card predicts the death of a child close to you.

Next. to n. 11, n. 35 predicts an illness. The only remedy will be to purify your blood. Beware of the doctor that suggests another kind of cure.

Next to n. 39, this n.35 card indicates insomnia. You will be treated with drugs. Don't take too many so that the taking of drugs will not become a habit.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
circa 1977 / 2000
E. Frances Cartes
(the successor to the 'house of Grimaud' products)

The booklet is titled:

The Great Etteilla
copyright JM Simon 1977

P. 22

No. 35 The One Stick

This card is especially influenced by the cards near i whether they are the right way or upside down. This card is never good regarding birth or business deals.

R. You may get a child. But will it live?
U. A good piece of advise. Sell out before you go broke.
R. With 48. Do not let yourself be seduced. Near 17. A disease of the blood.
U. You are threatened with serious trouble...even arrest !

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this rather detailed comparison of one card through five booklets was not easy. I do not think I can answer any more booklet questions in such detail. Others who have historic Lismon or Grimaud decks as they can also look through all your notes and will do what they can.
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Comparing 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla to to WWPCM01612


http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm

I believe after reading through the information Mike H. presented, that this is related to the Etteilla II pattern cards and "Julia Orsini" text.

For the decks I have and the scans posted of the WWPCM01612:

The only differences in my decks seem to be a slight polish or darker/lighter colors on the front of the card and the pattern on my card backs. My card backs are my repeating motif of either a tiny floral or blue 'swirling suns' on back on both my copies --the unboxed, without booklet copy and the one that arrived with the booklet and Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-191o box. These are not reproductions, they are the original old decks.

I do have in addition to the original two old 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteillas a reproduction...this is an addtional Editions Dusserre reproduction of the 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla.That box cover has colored images. My old original Grimaid boxed deck is in a burgundy box cover and has a black and white label. The 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla has a black and white version of the same image that the Editions Dusserre reproduction box has in color. I did not check the French text of the deck beyond noticing it lists Naissance as upright. (Note: sorry, correction, found the cards as Naissance listed upright, but text chosen by Jean Marie L'hote in booklet does not agree with the booklet of Grimaud that came with my 1900-1920 deck. More detail in later post #60. I only speak of my decks.

Please understand there is no Lismon Etteilla reproduction that I am aware of as of 2011. Again I can only speak of what I have seen so far.

I am certain if others have different information they will give good detail and sources for people to update. Pictures to reference or dates and authors help.


The 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla booklet (C) is the same as the sample of the first Grand Etteilla deck shown.

My 1969 English J.M. Simon translation (D) of the 1900-1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla seems to follow the 1900 - 1910 text fairly closely.


But I find myself liking the Editions Dusserre ("A") and 1890 Lismon Etteilla ("B") text better than the Grimaud ("C" and "D") and Frances Cartes ("E") later meanings.
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Lismon Etteilla 1890 Box/Booklet--linked thread--Papercandy's Post #40


http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...3&page=4&pp=10

Beginning in Post # 40, Papercandy gives beautiful detail scans on the Lismon Etteilla cards.

Some of the linked thread images have very clear scans of the box, booklet title page and other deck images--these are what I have as well.

I had to re-process and downsize my Android mobile images and they still weren't as clear and good as the deck card images shown in this linked thread. I am going to post some of the images that replicate my 1890 Lismon Etteilla box, booklet and cards--they are actually from other people's decks in the linked thread, as they show what I have much better than I can do now.

I hope this link and these images of the 1890 Lismon Etteilla are enough help for the comparisons right now.

I think what might be left is a listing keywords of the 1890 Julia Orsini / Lismon Etteilla booklet, say from 14-35 for MikeH or others to compare what is replicated in the Simon Blocquel/Lismon/Julia Orsini text. The earlier linked thread to keywords and meanings from cards 1-13 are posted

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1934929



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