ravenest
Hi RLG. Where does this square come from, who developed it. Can you show it or give ref to where it is? If developed by you, did you name it, if not who did?RLG said:
Thaks R.
The Book of the Law Study Group 2.55
Thaks R.
RLG
Aeon418 said:That's not the way I read your initial post. You presented your work on Trigrammaton as the solution to Liber AL. Your exact words were that it "purports to definitively fulfill this particular verse, and decode the entirety of Liber CCXX. Decode the entirety of Liber CCXX? That's a very charged statement, with a whole host of implications. Anyone who "purports" to have the entire solution to Liber AL is in essence saying they are the one that cometh after with the key of it all. This is a reference to a specific individual, not a mere continuation of the work. Unless I have misunderstood what you mean by "entirety". Have I? Are you using the word in a non-standard way?
What does your cipher say about the "chance shape of the letters and their position to one another"?
Can we see your solution to II:76. This is the ultimate test, yes?
Sublime simplicity and immediate conviction. Does your solution meet these criteria? Nearly all the the solutions I have seen have involved tortuous mathematics and were anything but immediately convincing. I would love to be proved wrong this time, if you're not too busy of course.
An essay for Heirs Apparent. It's good reading.
http://cornelius93.com/EpistleCodeLiberAl.html
Dwtw
The term 'entirety of Liber CCXX' is a reference to the gematria value of the entire text of that document. This was further discussed in a later post. The value of the entire book is a number of significance. This phrase does not mean that it decodes every possible meaning and secret of Liber CCXX which is really impossible, since there are so many layers to the document in terms of heuristic and exegetical content.
If one cares to experiment with any other well-known English gematria as applied to Liber CCXX, you will see that none of them have a significant sum for the *entire document*, which is rather telling since the text indicates that every single letter is of significance.
Regarding the chance shape of the letters, etc. The sum of the entire Liber CCXX can also be generated from verse III:47. Also, a number of other interesting answers can be discovered in this verse, but I'm really not going to go into all the details here, because it can't be captured in a 'soundbite', and I don't think it appropriate to the forum to post excessively long content. Suffice it to say that all the characters required to duplicate the entirety of Liber CCXX can fit exactly on a grid of squares containing 143 x 208 cells, and where they end up on that grid is of great interest.
Regarding the cryptic verse II:76, I do not agree that it is any kind of 'ultimate test' of...something (which you don't specify). It is certainly an enigma, and there are quite a few pages devoted to it in the Book of Mutations. One of the most significant features of it is that the sum of the letters, times the sum of the numbers, times the number of groups of letters or numbers, equals the exact total of the book:
(4,6,3,8) (A,B,K) (2,4) (A,L,G,M,O,R) (3) (Y)
(X) (24,89) (R,P,S,T,O,V,A,L)
Numbers = 143 = "The Book of the Law"
Letters = 208 = "Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit"
Groups = 9 = "Hail"
143 x 208 x 9 = 267,696 = Entirety of Liber CCXX
This is by no means the sole solution or the only information to be gleaned from the Cipher, but it's quickly and easily explained.
Another easy answer is that if you split the 28 numbers/letters of the cipher exactly in half, the first 14 glyphs sum to 117, and the last 14 glyphs sum to 234.
4+6+3+8+A+B+K+2+4+A+L+G+M+O = 117
R+3+Y+X+24+89+R+P+S+T+O+V+A+L = 234
In Trigrammaton Qabalah, 117 and 234 are what are known as 'antigrams', i.e., they are numbers whose lines/digits are exactly opposite each other, (just like the first two hexagrams of I Ching are 'antigrams').
so, in base 3 these numbers look like:
117 = 011100
234 = 022200
Yang and Yin are opposites, and Tao is neutral. What is interesting here is that the cipher splits into two halves whose sums are 'antigrams' of each other, while the sum of the entire cipher is 351, which is the 'mystic number' of 26, i.e., the sum of all the numbers from 1-26. Since the trigrams constitute all the decimal numbers from 0-26, then 351 is the sum of all the trigrams in Liber Trigrammaton.
I think it is significant that the sum of the cipher is equal to the base 3 sum of all the trigrams, particularly when the numerical content of the cipher equals 143 and this is the gematria value of the word 'Trigrammaton'. There is a lot of other information hidden in this cipher, but it would require more detail to explain at first glance, so I won't go into it.
As for sublime simplicity and immediate conviction, that's not for me to say. *I* think it's simple and convincing, but others may not. The cipher has values equal to the name of the Book and the names of the three Gods of its chapters. Multiplying these two terms by 9 equals the sum of the entirety of the Book. Pretty simple.
You've mentioned the work of Jerry Cornelius. I've read all the essays he's posted as well as others, and while I am often entertained by him, and find he has much of relevance to share, I disagree when it comes to this particular verse. He seems to have a keen interest in there NOT being a solution to it. He's entitled to his opinion of course, but I don't think he knows much, if anything, about Trigrammaton Qabalah. And probably too many cabalists have cried wolf over this endeavor to make it easy to believe the actual solution when it finally appears, (even though it appeared in 1907).
And when it comes to other systems, their creators have a vested interest in having it 'accepted', and are generally known by their volubility. In the case of the TQ, this is not 'my' system, so it matters little to me if it is accepted or not. I am simply moving forward with the information left by the Prophet, and discovering applications for it. Please spare me the typical straw man of being the Child or the Heir or the One or whatever the preferred title is. I'm not claiming it here. The system works and should be judged on its own merits. After fourteen years of development, it requires a certain amount of study before it can be dismissed out of hand.
I think I should stress that even if one rejects all the gematria implications of Liber Trigrammaton, the mathematical system itself is applicable to any gematria system. If you want to calculate using the NAEQ cipher, so be it, but the sentences in that cipher that equal 117 and 234 will still be represented by ternary numbers that are 'antigrams'. The arithmological component of Trigrammaton is universal, and has nothing to do with whether one accepts the gematria. It is a new paradigm, not just an alphanumeric cipher. Our holy book has three chapters, our new number system has three digits.
If you like your Hebrew and Greek gematria, no problem. But note that:
To Mega Therion = 666 = 220200
Choronzon = 333 = 110100
The numbers 666 and 333 are antigrams when expressed in base 3. So you can discover things using other systems as well. It's not all tied to the English language specifically.
111 = 011010
093 = 010110
The decimal numbers 111 and 93 are reversals of each other in base 3. This would tie together the Hebrew Alef and the Greek Thelema. And many other examples of this sort of thing can be found.
My original point was to indicate that the Prophet provided a solution to this verse II:55 via Liber Trigrammaton. Anyone who wants to go a lot deeper into it should get a hold of the book. I can hardly distill 500+ pages into a few paragraphs, and I've already written far more than I planned to, as my time is rather short these days.
Litlluw
RLG
RLG
ravenest said:
Dwtw
The Kamea of Baphomet was named by me, in honor of the number 729. The square was derived from one which was created by C.A. Browne, Jr., that appeared in the book "Magic Squares and Cubes" by W.S. Andrews at the turn of the last century.
http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Squares-Cubes-W-Andrews/dp/1596050373
The derivation is that one takes the square created by Browne, and subtracts the value of 1 from each cell, thus converting his square, which runs from 1 to 729, into a square that runs from 0 to 728, therfore representing all the possible hexagrams that can be created by the conjunction of the 27 trigrams with each other.
This 27 x 27 square has some amazing mathematical properties, as you can probably imagine, but when it is looked at in terms of base 3, the patterns are simply astounding.
All of the 'doubled trigrams' (a hexagram with the same trigram in upper and lower positions) occupy the center column; all hexagrams that have antigrams in upper and lower position are on the bottom row, all the I Ching hexagrams are in a fractal pattern on the grid, and so forth.
http://www.trigrammaton.net/Magic_Squares.htm
Litlluw
Grigori
Thanks for taking the time to reply as such length RLG. I do think I will need your book, and a few years to fully understand, but that is a great start for me to see how people can approach these things.
This is just a personal observation, but it's really interesting to me that an English Qabalah would develop with the trigrams as a basis, rather than a simple LETTER=NUMBER in ascending order approach as with Hebrew Qabalah.
This reflects my English speaking bias, which is perhaps not entirely inappropriate since we're discussing an English Qabalah created by an enlishman. It's of note to me that the English Qabalah is not the simple LETTER=NUMBER game that I assume Hebrew Qabalah is for a native Hebrew speaker. It still requires me to participate in a language/alphabet that is not second nature to me, and exert intellectual effort, to use a system that has a significant focus on moving beyond intellect.
Doesn't mean much really I s'pose, but its something that occurred to me.
Is it sacrilege to propose that in the Aeon of the Child, there might be rather of lot of Children
This is just a personal observation, but it's really interesting to me that an English Qabalah would develop with the trigrams as a basis, rather than a simple LETTER=NUMBER in ascending order approach as with Hebrew Qabalah.
This reflects my English speaking bias, which is perhaps not entirely inappropriate since we're discussing an English Qabalah created by an enlishman. It's of note to me that the English Qabalah is not the simple LETTER=NUMBER game that I assume Hebrew Qabalah is for a native Hebrew speaker. It still requires me to participate in a language/alphabet that is not second nature to me, and exert intellectual effort, to use a system that has a significant focus on moving beyond intellect.
Doesn't mean much really I s'pose, but its something that occurred to me.
RLG said:
Is it sacrilege to propose that in the Aeon of the Child, there might be rather of lot of Children
Aeon418
Thoughts along this line would have been more helpful in your initial post. Making statements without context about definitively fulfilling particular verses, and decoding the entirety of Liber CCXX is highly likely to mislead and give the wrong impression.RLG said:
Really? So who is meant to expound it?RLG said:
Interesting, but no more convincing than the NAEQ solution that the numbers and letters equal the phrase, "English Alphabet".RLG said:
You seem to have missed what was implied by "cart before the horse" in one of the essays I linked.RLG said:
Yes, and Charles Babbage invented my computer.RLG said:
If Crowley himself had applied Base-3 to Trigrammaton and got nowhere with it, I would agree with the above quote. But he didn't. You did and it's your system. Trying to say it's Crowley's system does not wash. In fact it's a "have your cake and eat it" style get out clause that allows you to make any claims you like for the system, with zero accountability. How very convenient.
Your original point was that it was the solution. You've subsequently back-tracked from this position, and now it's just another tool in the box. (And it doesn't even belong to you either, despite 14 year of effort!) Another partial solution to some, but not all, of the riddles posed by CCXX. Just like all other EQ systems have done and do. They all produce results of one kind or another. Whether or not those results are always useful is another matter entirely. In fact it is something to be expected from partial and personal solutions.RLG said:
Aeon418
Asking what new knowledge a particular system reveals is a good question. EQ systems seem to fall down on this point. Yes, there are some interesting number-word correlations. But what's new?
RLG
Dwtw
Just to be clear, when I say that Trigrammaton is not 'my' system, I mean specifically that Liber XXVII was written by Crowley, and the letters of the English Alphabet were attributed to the trigrams of that document by Crowley. It is HIS document and they are HIS attributions.
In the context of discussing the fulfillment of this particular verse, which refers to the creation of an English Alphabet gematria, the solution belongs to Crowley, not me. I have certainly tried to progress further with the trigrams and find new applications, but to claim it is my system would be disingenuous. The system has many elements that have nothing to do with gematria, and these aspects were created by myself and others, but for the purpose of this particular thread, I'm not discussing those in any detail. The main point is that the trigrams originate from the Prophet.
So as I said above, I really don't care if anyone 'accepts' it or not, because it isn't my system, meant to prove anything about me personally. I mention it because any exegetical study of verse II:55 needs to include information about Trigrammaton.
In response to Aeon 418's dismissal of certain alpha-numeric aspects of the Cipher from verse II:76; these numbers are meant to show one aspect of the Cipher, as it relates to the text as a whole. They are not the one definitive and exclusive 'answer' to the riddle, and I do not believe such a thing exists. The riddle has many layers. But discussion of any of them in depth rightfully belongs to the thread for that particular verse.
Trigrammaton gematria is not designed to decode this cipher, nor does its success or failure rest on whether or not it can do so. There is no indication in the BOTL that there is a necessary connection between the two. As scientists, all we can do is experiment and see if such a connection exists. When I look at the Cipher, it gives a very simple mathematical formula that generates the gematria value of the entire text of Liber CCXX. That's a very impressive start, regardless of what else can be found in the cipher. It is true that the NAEQ finds a numerical equivalence to the phrase 'English Alphabet', which is neat; but not going beyond that, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Nor would any other equivalence, unless it is found in combination with other relevant information, because any gematria will give you some answer or another, and in a vacuum, these are rather meaningless. In the case of Trigrammaton, the gematria provides the name of the Book, the name of the three gods of that Book, and by multiplying these, the total gematria value of the Book. That's pretty comprehensive information in a simple formula, and something that NAEQ is simply incapable of doing.
As to the other point about what is 'new' in the system, there is quite a lot that is new, starting with the completely new paradigm of using 3 as a numerical base instead of 10. This numerical base and its graphical representation then proceed to make connections between numbers that no one ever thought were connected before due to their being 'antigrams', reversals, magic square pairs, etc. To me, qabalah, at its foundation, is number mysticism, and Liber XXVII provides us with a completely new approach to this discipline. Forget about the gematria aspect for a minute; there is still a wealth of applications for this 'ultimate foundation of the highest theoretical qabalah' as AC called it. The rest of this 'new' material is quite involved and far too numerous and detailed to be discussed in such a forum - that's why there is a lengthy book dedicated to exploring the multitude of new approaches.
I won't drag the thread out any longer than necessary. Thanks for the chance to post this information.
Litlluw
RLG
Just to be clear, when I say that Trigrammaton is not 'my' system, I mean specifically that Liber XXVII was written by Crowley, and the letters of the English Alphabet were attributed to the trigrams of that document by Crowley. It is HIS document and they are HIS attributions.
In the context of discussing the fulfillment of this particular verse, which refers to the creation of an English Alphabet gematria, the solution belongs to Crowley, not me. I have certainly tried to progress further with the trigrams and find new applications, but to claim it is my system would be disingenuous. The system has many elements that have nothing to do with gematria, and these aspects were created by myself and others, but for the purpose of this particular thread, I'm not discussing those in any detail. The main point is that the trigrams originate from the Prophet.
So as I said above, I really don't care if anyone 'accepts' it or not, because it isn't my system, meant to prove anything about me personally. I mention it because any exegetical study of verse II:55 needs to include information about Trigrammaton.
In response to Aeon 418's dismissal of certain alpha-numeric aspects of the Cipher from verse II:76; these numbers are meant to show one aspect of the Cipher, as it relates to the text as a whole. They are not the one definitive and exclusive 'answer' to the riddle, and I do not believe such a thing exists. The riddle has many layers. But discussion of any of them in depth rightfully belongs to the thread for that particular verse.
Trigrammaton gematria is not designed to decode this cipher, nor does its success or failure rest on whether or not it can do so. There is no indication in the BOTL that there is a necessary connection between the two. As scientists, all we can do is experiment and see if such a connection exists. When I look at the Cipher, it gives a very simple mathematical formula that generates the gematria value of the entire text of Liber CCXX. That's a very impressive start, regardless of what else can be found in the cipher. It is true that the NAEQ finds a numerical equivalence to the phrase 'English Alphabet', which is neat; but not going beyond that, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Nor would any other equivalence, unless it is found in combination with other relevant information, because any gematria will give you some answer or another, and in a vacuum, these are rather meaningless. In the case of Trigrammaton, the gematria provides the name of the Book, the name of the three gods of that Book, and by multiplying these, the total gematria value of the Book. That's pretty comprehensive information in a simple formula, and something that NAEQ is simply incapable of doing.
As to the other point about what is 'new' in the system, there is quite a lot that is new, starting with the completely new paradigm of using 3 as a numerical base instead of 10. This numerical base and its graphical representation then proceed to make connections between numbers that no one ever thought were connected before due to their being 'antigrams', reversals, magic square pairs, etc. To me, qabalah, at its foundation, is number mysticism, and Liber XXVII provides us with a completely new approach to this discipline. Forget about the gematria aspect for a minute; there is still a wealth of applications for this 'ultimate foundation of the highest theoretical qabalah' as AC called it. The rest of this 'new' material is quite involved and far too numerous and detailed to be discussed in such a forum - that's why there is a lengthy book dedicated to exploring the multitude of new approaches.
I won't drag the thread out any longer than necessary. Thanks for the chance to post this information.
Litlluw
RLG
ravenest
RLG said:
Thanks for that, unfortunatly I just returned my copy of Andrews to its owner.
Are you familiar with Benjamin Franklin's varient (from the G.D. one) square of 8. Have you experimented with planetary mandalas drawn from Kamea? Basic form is join the dots 1 2 3 4 ... etc. Ben's 8 makes a very interesting pattern in light of Mercury and Gemini.
