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Quote:
Originally Posted by rif
I don't read French at all, unfortunately. I'd always hoped for a clean-type copy that could be run through a translator. (Something not possible with his similarly-named tarot book in PDF.) But at least I'm a fast typist.
You can get text version which you can copy and paste into a translator by clicking on 'nur text'; but you will need to check the conversion against the image version as the conversion to text usually is full of error - plus an online translator that is never particularly great anyway will make even less sense of archaic french.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Etteilla's 'authority' for the the correlation of french to italian suits ... was probably Mellet:
Yes?
But have a look in particular to the last page of the chapter VIII of M. Le C. DE M. (Gébelin himself?) add-on to Gebelin's book.
The chapter is called: "Cartes auxquelles les Diseurs de bonne aventure attachent des pronostics" (sorry, too lazy to translate)
You will find divinations key words very similar to those in "Etteilla ou la seule manière ..."
Even in chapter V, I do find similarity to the "common" (what ever it means) cartomancy.
So it could also be that Gebelin/Mellet simply adapt the cartomancy as it was
at this time and it seems as if Etteilla was already a quite clever specialist in Cartomancy at this time.

My personal point is more to search before and not after Etteilla.
To me it is clear that all the Tarot divination (at this time, I am of course not talking about the use of Tarot today that I do very much prefer!) is coming from or build upon cartomancy, Etteilla being a good representative for it.
All Etteillas work has been used later in one way or another.
It is also funny to see that for example Papus wrote a whole Divination book ("Le Tarot Divinatoire") completely based on Etteilla's work even if he cannot prevent himself to laugh about Etteilla! But at the very least, he names Etteilla as his source.

For me it is enough to see that some "keywords" travelled from Etteilla to Waite and then much later by Papus and others ...

I would now really like to find earlier cartomancy books or sources to see and understand where do Etteilla's keywords are coming from

Best regards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
but you will need to check the conversion against the image version as the conversion to text usually is full of error
And don't forget a lot of "s" are written like an "f"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil
Yes?
But have a look in particular to the last page of the chapter VIII of M. Le C. DE M. (Gébelin himself?) add-on to Gebelin's book.
The chapter is called: "Cartes auxquelles les Diseurs de bonne aventure attachent des pronostics" (sorry, too lazy to translate)
You will find divinations key words very similar to those in "Etteilla ou la seule manière ..."
Even in chapter V, I do find similarity to the "common" (what ever it means) cartomancy.
So it could also be that Gebelin/Mellet simply adapt the cartomancy as it was
at this time and it seems as if Etteilla was already a quite clever specialist in Cartomancy at this time.
Yep I agree, that was my point in the 10 cups house example: either de Mellet is using Etteilla as a source or they are both drawing on a common strand of (french suit) cartomancy. However, I think it probable that Etteilla's source for the conversion of French to Latin suits for his book(s) on tarot was de Mellet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
*The correspondence of latin to french suits has also been made recently in the Dame Fortuna tarot deck.
Paul Huson's Dame Fortuna deck being based upon Etteilla of course...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil
And don't forget a lot of "s" are written like an "f"
Google translate has got a little cleverer - it is not perfect but it does sometimes detect when an 'f' is an 's'. For example:


R. Naiffance , l'on verra pour qui, ou bien où l'on eft né.


It correctly identifies naissance and est and translates the above as

R. Birth, we will see who, or where one is born.

R. . . : . Domeftique
it identifies as domestique and translates as
R. . . :. Servant.

R. Entreprife, entreprendre, l'on confulte le Jeu pour favoir fi l'on réuffira.
it recognizes entreprise, savoir, consulte, si and réussira and translates as [i]
R. Enterprize, undertake, we confult the game knowing if we fucceed.

R. Trahifon , Ton verra fi l'on eft trahi , ou fi l'on trahit.
R. Treachery, your glass if it is betrayed, or if we betrayed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
R. Trahifon , Ton verra fi l'on eft trahi , ou fi l'on trahit.
R. Treachery, your glass if it is betrayed, or if we betrayed.
And this doesn't make sense, and is an example of where you need to check the text against the image, which shows Ton is actually l'on:


R. Trahifon , l'on verra fi l'on eft trahi , ou fi l'on trahit.
R. Treachery, we will ignore it is betrayed, or if we betrayed.


If however we change the 'f' to an 's' manually we get the translation:


R. Trahison , l'on verra si l'on est trahi , ou si l'on trahit.
R. Treason, we'll see if we are betrayed, or if it betrays.
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anyone have this book in english ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm82
anyone have this book in english ?
Now that is a question

Of course, I do not know absolutely, but I would say that this book having never been reprinted in french during the 20th century, and being also very rare to find, it is very improbable that an english version has ever existed.

I find it is very good and important that this book is now available to all, even if it is not so easy for everybody to read

I guess there is also no english version of the later Etteillas book:
"Manière de se recréer avec le jeu de cartes nommées Tarots" from 1783 (premier cahier) 1785 (second cahier) 1785 (Troisième et Quatriéme cahier)

To my knowledge only the premier and the second cahier have been reprinted in 1977 as Facsimile by the edition Jobert.
I have one copy of this reprint but it is quite difficult to find.
ISBN 0337-0674

The Quatrième cahier has been included as Facsimilé in Halbronn's book: "Etteilla L'Astrologie du livre de Thot" printed by Tredaniel in 1993.
I have also a copy of this book which is not very difficult to find.
ISBN 2-85707-556-1

Best regards

BTW does anyone know if the Troisième Cahier is somewhere available?
Top   #19


 


 


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