Visconti Sforza - Strength card cruel?

[Bernice]

....Nah not bashing the lion....Victor in War.
(Given the eyes have it, where do you think the blows would have landed? A better stance of Baseball I have never seen..where's the Ball? where's the Ball?)
~Rosanne

"United we stand, divided we fall". Lion & Man are standing united - at peace with each other. It's a real historical card depicting a wee bit of history.

Kudos to those who have researched this deck and made their findings available to us .......

Bee

[cirom]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

There are some interesting stories about how Milan came to have a Lion as it's mascot.

I'm still not clear that is the case, I have family there, and spent many summers there in my youth, (admittedly doing things other than studying the historic heraldic associations of the city) and I was under the impression that the its coat of arms consisted of the attached elements in various combinations. It can be seen in everything from the embelm of Alfa Romeo cars, to the local soccer team merchandise.

I always associated the Lion with Venice, so if the scene is meant to be Frederico against Venice, that might make sense. But if there is no connection of the Lion with Milan, then I don't get the Man and lion working together argument.

[Le Fanu]

Originally Posted by nisaba

In Arthur's time, and even in Mallory's time, "nobility" was not about high ideals, it was about how many heads you had smashed in, how bloody the deaths were, and how strong your blows were.

This is what "nobility" and "high ideals" were about before about the eighteenth century. The Viscontis ain't got nuttin' on Arthur, noble king that he was.

Not entirely. Success on the field yes, but it was "cortysye" (courtesy) which made the noble. You see it in Sir Gawain and the medieval romances; whole tracts about the virtue and courtly gentleness of knights.

[ana luisa]

Just another card for comparison. Not the Strength but the 5 of Wands .This one is also disturbing to me. The man is still bigger than the beast but this time BOTH are trapped. And yet, the club is still there...

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/durer/

[Rosanne]

Well I have been trying to find some links for you.....
Until I do here is another angle. I was not joking about the Ball (where's the Ball?) Here are some Medici Lions of Florence.
http://www.clevermag.com/art/lions.htm

Sforza and Medici (Sforza's patron) against Venice?

again..
http://www.gotterdammerung.org/photo...%20Priori.html

The lions of Milan well they are everywhere and are not winged here is one..
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:San_Babila_(Milan)_-_Facade

Look on top of the colonnade- if you have seen Milan you will agree the lion is everywhere. The Lions like on the San Babila Church colonnade have their tail down between their back legs- like on the card. Which of course does not prove that the card shows Milan or the Medici as Lion- but the card is definitely not a man about to hit the Lion-
But truly I believe it is Sforza of Milan- either with Milan the Lion or more likely Medici of Florence against Venice.

~Rosanne

[cirom]

Well certainly there may be lions statues and depictions everywhere in Milan, but I think that could be said of many European cities, along with horses, eagles, dragons, griffins etc. The question is wether the lion in this case "represents" Milan, which I question, especially if other creatures were more officially recognized and used to do that. And if it does'nt then some of the theories proposed here don't make as much sense

Nevertheless the nuances of these points can go round in circles. But I must say that this discussion has served some purpose. What for me was initially a clear cut case of a man (whoever it was) bashing the hell out of poor Leo, has at least now raised some doubts in my mind. Not that the animal cruelty issue was a concern, after all as has been noted, these moral judgments have to be made in a historical context. My issue with the Leo bashing was that it did'nt symbolize the kind of courage and strength I understood this card to be about.

So ultimately, since we can only hypothesize on the original intent, I guess its ok as we do with any other card on any other deck to come to our own conclusion. If that conclusion allows the card to work for you in the context of a tarot reading, then it works....

[Teheuti]

To me the lion looks cowed. His tail is between his legs and his front legs are down to make him look smaller. This is the attitude of a beaten dog who is trying to get away. If the lion were about to spring (at the unseen enemy) then his hind legs would be compressed for push off.

I think Ross' article also is significant. You can't get away from the image he found being the closest thing to this card (of which I have knowledge).

[Abrac]

I did indeed read Ross's article. The "Victory in War" angle seems more satisfying than anything else, to me anyway.

[cirom]

Originally Posted by Teheuti

To me the lion looks cowed. His tail is between his legs and his front legs are down to make him look smaller. This is the attitude of a beaten dog who is trying to get away. If the lion were about to spring (at the unseen enemy) then his hind legs would be compressed for push off.

I have to agree with this. If this really is a scene of the hero and his lion accomplice working together against an unseen off camera common enemy, the artist really did a poor job in depicting this king of beasts. The pose definitely looks more like cowering to me, than being ready to leap into action.
As Teheuti points out the tail is between its legs, and I don't think it was painted this way just to be consistent with statues as was pointed out earlier. Statues all tend to show animals with tails attached or close to their bodies, not to emphasize the animals mood, but for practicality of the medium there were using. Just imaging how difficult it would be to sculpt an animal with an thin extended tail, not to mention how vulnerable it would be to future damage.
Not every artistic decision is aesthetic, longevity was a big consideration.

[nisaba]

Originally Posted by cirom

I have to agree with this. If this really is a scene of the hero and his lion accomplice working together against an unseen off camera common enemy, the artist really did a poor job in depicting this king of beasts. The pose definitely looks more like cowering to me, than being ready to leap into action.

<grin> Now that you've said this, everyone will agree. When I said it, I got shouted down. <laughter>