Forgiveness and Thelema??

[thorhammer]

I was thinking about this today, about self-forgiveness in particular. I tend to be very hard on myself, so it's something I ponder often.

The idea of forgiveness is bound up in the notion of a conscience, I would say. And as I understand it, the conscience is something that stands in the way of one developing an understanding of the True Will.

And yet, the whole . . . vibe (if I may get all New Agey) of forgiveness is such that I don't want to dismiss it out of hand. I'd love to hear discussion of it from the eminent authorities and thinkers who frequent this forum.

So what of forgiveness of others, who trespass against us? What of forgiveness of ourselves, when we fail to live up to our ideals/ethics/expectations?

I really would love to have you all contribute your thoughts, free of recrimination or attack.

\m/ Kat

[cardlady22]

I'm quite interested to see what comes up here as well. I'm not sure that what gets "taught" as forgiveness is actually what needs to happen. We've all been in the childhood scenario where we did something and were told to say "I'm sorry" and the other child was told to say "I forgive you." Some meant it; some didn't. Most of us probably didn't even understand what was behind the ritual.

The basis for getting angry or hurt stems from expectation . . . or am I all wet? And, of course, that doesn't count deliberate violence.

The idea that you "owe" someone an apology, or that they should come ask for your forgiveness creates a dilemma of its own. In my family, there are instances where certain people felt driven to confess and ask forgiveness, but the damage from the revelation was far worse than the Original Event Cause. And yet, there is a definite calming effect (for me) when I know that my behavior was uncalled for/wrong/thoughtless and I admit that. I suppose the question comes down to "When do I admit to myself vs. another human being?"

At some point, a person has to evaluate whether the expectation is realistic. Can or will that person (or your own self) change to what was expected?

I'm probably not expressing this the way I want.

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by thorhammer

The idea of forgiveness is bound up in the notion of a conscience, I would say. And as I understand it, the conscience is something that stands in the way of one developing an understanding of the True Will.

I'm a bit rushed at the moment, so this will have to be brief. But it might get you started.

Conscience, stripped of parental, social, and religious indoctrination, is a sure guide to acting in accordance with the True Will. The trouble is that most of us have had another persons ideas of right and wrong forced upon us. These alien ideas may or may not be in conformity with the Will. But true conscience and learnt behaviour patterens can sometimes be very hard to distinguish from each other. This is why the first rule of the Mysteries has always been Know Thyself.

[Always Wondering]

Great question Kat.
Good to hear from you Cardlady.

It was a little jarring for me, when I first came to try and understand Love under Will, to read about human relations as math and chemistry. I wanted someone to spell out the new rules about love, including forgiveness, because I had a load of guilt and anger for doing the "right" thing.
I found no peace in "right" as I had equal and conflicting desires. All the rules in my life became meaningless. I had no compass for navigation. I did not seek advice from anyone; pure instinct told me not to. I had no idea what Love under Will was, just a vague reference to one of my tarot cards. This is how I got to this forum.
This is how I began to start to know myself.
It wasn't so much about forgiving myself, but beginning to accept myself.

Just a dramatic version really, of what Aeon418 just said. He always makes everything sound so easy.

As for forgiving others, I don't know, I tend to internalize everything for better or worse. I'm a bit of a hermit that way. It's not so much what anyone does to me.
I guess it's all about me.

AW

[Rosanne]

It is not often I agree with Aeon418- but this time I do. Hope I am forgiven for this lapse .

I think people often confuse forgiveness with the front porch to forgiveness - The apology. I guess the apology is about when we are simply wrong and it stops self- righteousness. So, leaving that aside, people view Forgiveness as different things. I view it much like the Dictionary - cease to blame or hold resentment against- pardon yourself and others. I do not hold a religious view on forgiveness.

A Guy called Harvey Jackins wrote " Given our heritage, childhood, upbringing, our background and education and all experiences we have been through it would probably be true to say the we have done the very best at every moment of our life- that is the very best we knew how to do at that time. Weren't our decisions the best we knew how to do and were capable of? They may not have been good or empowering, but if we could have made better ones I am sure we would have chosen those, chosen more skillful, more conscious choices. So what's to forgive?

So then apologise to ourselves and others if necessary and move on, knowing ourselves a little better.

Although we sought to do the right thing and believed we were doing the right thing with some judgement, hindsight can prove us wrong. That's OK, it's a lesson.

~Rosanne

[Abrac]

Forgiveness, as I understand it, is simply letting go of any negative emotion you may have toward a person or situation. It doesn't mean you are giving the other person a free pass to trample you again, or that you will forget what has happened; it just means you let go of the need for revenge, toward yourself or another.

Letting go of negative emotion frees you to pursue your own path rather than getting all tangled up in negativity.

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by cardlady22

I'm quite interested to see what comes up here as well. I'm not sure that what gets "taught" as forgiveness is actually what needs to happen. We've all been in the childhood scenario where we did something and were told to say "I'm sorry" and the other child was told to say "I forgive you." Some meant it; some didn't. Most of us probably didn't even understand what was behind the ritual.

I guess I should have put it more explicitly in my post, that I meant forgiveness in the mature sense, not the empty apology sense.

I posed the question because I've always had a problem with forgiveness, of others for many years, and of myself more recently. Forgiveness, to me, is the ability to let go of residual resentment or tension stemming from perceived wrongdoing. It's not an admission that the wrongdoing was right, after all, and that one's reaction in being hurt or disappointed was unjustified. It's more that you're able to learn from it, and move on. When it involves two people, I guess the potential for learning is increased exponentially, not just because both have the opportunity to learn thorugh experience what is right or wrong, but to observe another individual's reaction and behaviour in this situation.

Originally Posted by cardlady22

The basis for getting angry or hurt stems from expectation . . . or am I all wet? And, of course, that doesn't count deliberate violence.

I guess I never thought of it like that. But I suppose it's a valid point, really. Bears more pondering.

At some point, a person has to evaluate whether the expectation is realistic. Can or will that person (or your own self) change to what was expected?

Even better point. But, in theory*, two people's True Wills will never be at odds^, meaning that somewhere in the middle there, there is a reasonable, commonly applicable expectation.

\m/ Kat

* Disclaimer: As I understand it.
^ Makes me think of those hordes of bats that live in the blackness of vast caverns; when they take flight en masse, somehow they never collide.

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Aeon418

Conscience, stripped of parental, social, and religious indoctrination, is a sure guide to acting in accordance with the True Will. The trouble is that most of us have had another persons ideas of right and wrong forced upon us. These alien ideas may or may not be in conformity with the Will. But true conscience and learnt behaviour patterens can sometimes be very hard to distinguish from each other.

Agree, wholeheartedly. Every day, I face situations where I need to make a decision about how to act, and agonise about which course of action is dictated by habit/nurture, and which by Will/nature.

This is why the first rule of the Mysteries has always been Know Thyself.

*annoyed* Yeah, thanks. Seems quite self-defeating to me - one can't embark on the journey till one has achieved the destination.

\m/ Kat

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Always Wondering

It was a little jarring for me, when I first came to try and understand Love under Will, to read about human relations as math and chemistry. I wanted someone to spell out the new rules about love, including forgiveness, because I had a load of guilt and anger for doing the "right" thing.
I found no peace in "right" as I had equal and conflicting desires. All the rules in my life became meaningless. I had no compass for navigation.

I can identify so strongly with this whole description! It changes your worldview so fundamentally, and it's like trying to stay perfectly upright, balancing a full teacup on one's head, during a massive earthquake

Originally Posted by AW

As for forgiving others, I don't know, I tend to internalize everything for better or worse. I'm a bit of a hermit that way. It's not so much what anyone does to me.

See, I've always been a grudge-holder. In recent years, I've improved greatly, and now I don't carry bitterness around like a sort of perverse trophy (I figured out it wasn't helping me ). And yet, just forgiving others out of hand, without somehow communicating the reason for the perception of transgression, just grates on me so badly! I need to tell these people what they've done *wrong*.

I guess that raises another question - Who am I to tell them what is wrong?

\m/ Kat

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Although we sought to do the right thing and believed we were doing the right thing with some judgement, hindsight can prove us wrong. That's OK, it's a lesson.

~Rosanne

I'm sorry if I sound combative, Rosanne, but your post sounds very much influenced by modern day New Age fluffiness. I really don't mean to insult you, as I'm sure you know.

There just seems to be a distinct lack of personal rigour in your outlook as posted above. If it's so okay to always make mistakes, why try to be better in the first place??



\m/ Kat