Forgiveness and Thelema??

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Abrac

Letting go of negative emotion frees you to pursue your own path rather than getting all tangled up in negativity.

And, I suppose, allowing yourself to dictate your own course, as opposed to being a pinball, always bouncing off obstacles.

I know, I talk in metaphors.

\m/ Kat

[cardlady22]

Originally Posted by thorhammer

Makes me think of those hordes of bats that live in the blackness of vast caverns; when they take flight en masse, somehow they never collide.

This is so perfect to me! They are actively looking out for each other. We humans need to develop and use our own radar system.

ETA: This might be falling a bit off-topic, but it floored me when I realized that what I thought was a click with a person - as in "oh, let's get closer" - was actually a warning: Danger! "just like before"

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by thorhammer

Agree, wholeheartedly. Every day, I face situations where I need to make a decision about how to act, and agonise about which course of action is dictated by habit/nurture, and which by Will/nature.

And what do you use to try and make these decisions? Most people use their rational minds, the intellect, to make these kinds of choices. But the intellect is a good servant, but a bad master.

In a way the mind is like a computer. If you don't have the right data, or some of the facts have been half guessed or inferred, then the final answer is going to be wrong. In life we never get all the facts. So we have to make the best of a bad job and, for good or ill, make do with what we've got.

But fortunately we're not robots or computers. We have another side to our nature. Take a look at the RWS Lovers card. The Man (Conscious intellect) looks at the Woman (Subconscious, feelings). But the Woman looks at the Angel (Super-consciousness). So just like the man cannot look directly at the Angel, the rational mind cannot grasp the Will unless it surrenders some of it's control and learns to listen to subconscious feelings and intuition.

But, and here's the sting in the tail, not everything the woman/subconscious says is to be trusted. She is a store house of many things and not all of it is useful. This is why initiation is described as the journey inwards. Until you start you are not in a position to judge what things within you are dross and what are Will. This means the intuition has to be developed. Because without it the subconscious will tell you anything you want to hear. (Now there's a warning for Tarot readers everywhere. The cards never lie, or do they? )

But there is one saving grace here, but you probably won't like it because it sounds like corny, cheesy, new age slop.
Remember that Thelema and Agape both equal 93. If you can't see Thelema, then go with Agape.
Follow your heart.

Originally Posted by thorhammer

*annoyed* Yeah, thanks. Seems quite self-defeating to me - one can't embark on the journey till one has achieved the destination.

But the journey and the destination are one and the same. There is no magical finish line where you turn around and say to yourself, "wow! I'm enlightened". It's a continual process of self-revelation. Yes, you will mess up along the way. But that's part of the process. And the only real way you can truely mess up is to continually make the same mistakes.

[Rosanne]

Originally Posted by thorhammer

I'm sorry if I sound combative, Rosanne, but your post sounds very much influenced by modern day New Age fluffiness. I really don't mean to insult you, as I'm sure you know.

There just seems to be a distinct lack of personal rigour in your outlook as posted above. If it's so okay to always make mistakes, why try to be better in the first place??



\m/ Kat

Hehe Kat! I am the least New Age person I know. I do not mind combative. No insult taken.
The personal rigour was beaten out of me by the Church lol.
I find your concerns very Catholic by the way. You seem to have a very religious view of Forgiveness- hence the hardness on yourself of late.
So what that other people do not live up to your expectations, and sometimes you do not live up to your own expectations? Take a leaf out of Crowley's life- we is flawed beings! That does not mean we do not have to have any expectations of ourselves to be better than a minute ago.
Here is the answer and it is from Aeon418 ....

It's a continual process of self-revelation. Yes, you will mess up along the way. But that's part of the process. And the only real way you can truly mess up is to continually make the same mistakes.

and by the way I view Thelema as New Age- possibly the beginning of it... :wink:

~Rosanne

[Bernice]

O.K. so I read post 10 by thorhammer and this really took me by surprise "........modern day New Age fluffiness..."

, New Age fluffiness was born out of Thelema!

Sorry, I do not mean to be disrespectful, and we all have our own way of understanding things - but the G.D. & Uncle Al etc. more-or-less kick started the (esoteric) 'New Age'.

On topic: Forgiveness.
I suppose it could be viewed in a 'religious' light, as could 'compassion'. But I don't think either are confined to any religion. Basically I think that forgiveness is merely a letting go of any personal feelings that you would normally allow to stand between yourself & any other person/thing. A sort of 'surrender'.

Bee

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Take a leaf out of Crowley's life- we is flawed beings!

This is interesting.

We are flawed beings!? But flawed compared to what? Someone else's ideas of perfection? Or some other artifcial standard of perfection that we must all be measured against and judged accordingly?

In the final analysis you can only be yourself. If that doesn't meet someone else's standards, tough sh*t!

[thorhammer]

This is turning out to be very interesting, this thread. And it's really highlighting to me the changes in my POV from day to day! I keep looking back, thinking, "What was I on???" Thanks to everyone

Originally Posted by Aeon418

But the journey and the destination are one and the same. There is no magical finish line where you turn around and say to yourself, "wow! I'm enlightened". It's a continual process of self-revelation. Yes, you will mess up along the way. But that's part of the process. And the only real way you can truely mess up is to continually make the same mistakes.

I really appreciated your whole post, Aeon, it's really given me lots to think about. I love that you've applied that axiom about good servant, bad master to the intellect. That's given me a really big wad to chew on. But it's the last sentence that has really helped me the most, coz it's so true. It helps me to be a little gentler to myself. And maybe to others, too . . . if they're lucky

Originally Posted by Aeon418

This is interesting.

We are flawed beings!? But flawed compared to what? Someone else's ideas of perfection? Or some other artifcial standard of perfection that we must all be measured against and judged accordingly?

In the final analysis you can only be yourself. If that doesn't meet someone else's standards, tough sh*t!

Yes, true. And I try not to look at something or someone else and think, "Okay, I'm ahead on that count, now I can relax for a bit" I'm not a believer in Brownie points LOL, so although I know I'm flawed (as in, my true self has been corrupted by conditioning and life experience lived wrongly), I'm still aiming high.

\m/ Kat

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

I find your concerns very Catholic by the way. You seem to have a very religious view of Forgiveness- hence the hardness on yourself of late.

Really? Interesting observation, as it's not something that had occurred to me at all. But thanks for sharing, it gives me some context within which to consider my own thoughts.

and by the way I view Thelema as New Age- possibly the beginning of it... :wink:

You and Bernice basically said the same thing, so in response - you all knew what I meant . The new New Age has stifled and stultified and stymied all the force and effectiveness out of the original New Aeon thoughtforms. Please don't make me find the words right now, I'm having a hard week

\m/ Kat

[Bernice]

Thorhammer: The new New Age has stifled and stultified and stymied all the force and effectiveness out of the original New Aeon thoughtforms.

Yes Thorhammer I think you may be right about that. All 'created' mental-structures seem to become old-hat over time. We either outgrow them or become enmeshed in worn out views. I expect it's evolution, you have to move through 'new' stages to first appreciate, and then discard, the shortcomings of the 'old'. The danger here is dumping the baby with the bath water.

I'm thinking this is what you meant? If not = ignore me!

Bee

[thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Bernice

Yes Thorhammer I think you may be right about that. All 'created' mental-structures seem to become old-hat over time. We either outgrow them or become enmeshed in worn out views. I expect it's evolution, you have to move through 'new' stages to first appreciate, and then discard, the shortcomings of the 'old'. The danger here is dumping the baby with the bath water.

I'm thinking this is what you meant? If not = ignore me!

Bee

You make a very good point, though I don't think it applies to this situation.

I meant more that the vast majority of people in the new New Age section of society have taken the warm fuzzy purple-glitter-and-faeries-of-light-with-soft-marshmallow-kisses bits that they found in the GD/Thelemic upsurge, and run with it. Consequently, we have a whole subset of society (and moreso commerce) that caters to the wish of the masses to congratulate themselves for being mediocre. Scion says it so much better than I do . . .

I just saw a flash of that in Rosanne's post, that's all. And my reference in my OP to a "vibe" jives with what I'm talking about here, hence my *apology* in that post . I try not to use NewAgeisms, but I've been so *dumb* this week . . .

Have I expressed myself better this time? (she asked, helplessly)

\m/ Kat