Swords: what's the correct upright position?

[shaveling]

It does look like, going by the blocks, the flowers on the four and six also point downwards. That doesn't match the art I know. Or the flowers I know, for that matter. So I find the argument from the blocks for printing a sheet of uncut cards strong, but not decisive.

[thinbuddha]

Those are cut flowers.... hung to dry?

The debate is muddy at best, but to my mind a woodblock from 1760 is the only compelling evidence I've seen....

What art are you refering to that is in disagreement?

[shaveling]

Originally Posted by thinbuddha

Those are cut flowers.... hung to dry?
What art are you refering to that is in disagreement?

Heraldry, mostly. That's the decorative, emblematic art from days of yore I've spent the most time with, apart from religious images. A cut flower, with a bit of stem and a couple of leaves in that world is called a "slip." (Well, in English-speaking heraldry.) The flower goes up, the leaves are in their growing position, and the cut stem points down.Here's a modern example. These are the arms of the ex-husband of Princess Anne. I have a meeting to go to, and can't look for an old specimen. But heraldry is about as conservative as any craft gets. That's what heraldic slips looked like in the days of the Conver woodblocks and before that.

Also, paintings that show damasks with floral designs show them with the floral device in the growing position, not the drying one. Our contemporary users of such fabrics find the flowers-down a counter-intuitive display. And paintings of Madonnas with damask hangings in the background, or of clerics in damask vestments, suggest to me that artistic folks centuries ago thought the same thing.

But none of this is dispositive. The artists may have meant to show cut flowers hanging with their flowers pointing downwards. My guess is that the cards were spun around after they were cut. The one with flowers, I mean. As for the swords that are the real question at hand, I have less confidence on that one way or the other.

[Lumen]

Hi thinbuddha,

Thanks for the link; very informative.

The templates are very interesting, and how my question originated - I read a post (don't ask me which one) saying that some of the swords were upright and others down as the upright positioning.

As the plates show, some of the swords were up and some down, my first feeling was: the block was photographed upside down. But on closer look (all of the blocks) they seem to have a specific positioning and the flowers are stem up.

I still wonder if these were just the templates positioning, and later, after printing, the cards were placed swords and flowers up (hence the up and down swords). Yet, the templates' may very well illustrate the correct and original positioning of swords; if the cards were to be reversed after printing then the template for the cups would also show some reversals...

But, I don't know, for now I am going to stick with my swords upright. As I don't use reversals, their meaning is usually transformed by the neighboring cards - and the Ace has consistently indicated signing papers and documents on neither positive nor negative, and sometimes both.

On another note, Grimaud TdM is based on Conver, so...

Take care.

Lumen

[Abrac]

To my way of thinking the logical arrangement for upright is with the points of the swords and flower blossoms up; but that's just me. If I've learned anything from this forum it's that what seems logical to me isn't logical at all to someone else.

Like thinbuddha said, back then they were used for a card game and the question of upright or reversed never entered into it.

[Moonbow]

Comparing decks is the best way to to look closely at detail and notice missing or altered detail, and I would recommend reading the Contrasting the Dodal and Conver threads in the Contents of this forum. jmd makes excellent points in those threads for the Three and Ten of Swords, discussing the hilts, the downward pointing central sword and perhaps how those little flower buds came to be in our Marseilles decks. Well worth a read, and may also give some indication as to which really IS the upright of the sword cards.

[coredil]

Originally Posted by Lumen

Oops, forgot to mention the deck...

I am referring to the Ancien Tarot de Marseille, Grimaud.

Thanks.

Lumen

Concerning the swords direction in the Marteau Grimaud, you may find this thread interesting (In particular post #6)

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34915

As a personal comment I would say no one really knows what should be the direction of the swords, even Paul Marteau

But you can have a look to the Visconti deck, some swords are definitely pointing down: 1, 2, 4, 5
Also in the Sola Busca most of the swords are pointing down.
What does it mean?
Don't know, I imagine that these decks have been a kind of reference for later cardmaker-artist.

An other side note:
Does it really matter?
It is always possible to decide for yourself what should be up or down and give the cards your own meanings.

Best regards

[Lumen]

Hi,

Abrac,
I'm with you; unfortunately we are trained to follow the rules, which sometimes discourage the development of one's own way of doing, seeing, and interpreting things.

Moonbow,
Thanks for the link info; I'll definitely check it out.

Coredil,
My new deck has that Grimaud® on the sides, and all of the swords are pointing up. I'd say that if the deck comes out of its box displaying the swords in a specific way, then, I believe, that's that deck upright position, providing that the printer didn't make a mistake. But the old Grimaud deck has its trade mark indicating that in 10 d'épee the swords point down. So, go figure... It only served to confuse me. I'll just go with my gut - swords pointing up!

Thank you all for the great insight.

Take care,

Lumen

[coredil]

Originally Posted by Lumen

providing that the printer didn't make a mistake

That's exactly what many printers are doing all the time

[yaraluna]

to me is upright ,active position.
I use the Jodo-Camoin more than the Noblet. I follow the copyright to know when they are reversed, if i need to know.
although, i don't read reversed cards with the Marseilles really. i just read what i see, whether is reversed or not. i don't go by LWB (someone else's take on it) in that regard.

yara