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"C"  "C" is offline
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LiBER MUNDi


This is a Thread for anyone who is interested in the old ways, original iconography and true purpose of the medi(a)eval mind machine we came to know as TAROT - therefore I decided to post under "Tarot History & Iconography".


First let me summarize the ( historical ) situation.

There are 5 species of Tarot Decks...

1. The True Tarots
( ...in this Thread referred to as Ts - such as the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi Deck - better known as Visconti-Sforza-Tarot - I recommend the Dal Negro Version and in this Thread Ill call it Ta - and only one version of the Marseille Tarot Deck that I know of - Ill call it Tb - but later about that... )

2. The Faked Tarots
( ...such as the Estensi Tarot Deck - witch was given to the Estensi Family after Filippo Maria Visconti had decided to give his only daughter Bianca Maria to Francesco Sforza and not to Leonello d'Este - and many more - especially in the Marseille Tarot section - their pictures were spoiled by intention so that no one could do anything better with them as divination and card playing - but later more about that... )

3. The Copied Faked Tarots
( ...because Tarot was getting hyped in the aristocratic medi(a)eval world - everyone wanted to have one to be en vogue - and the artists who tried to make a living drew and painted what they saw and/or remembered with the best intentions and high goals in mind - but without knowing or understanding anything - naturally the same ( with some alterations... ) goes for the Marseille ( and other classic versions... ) Tarots as well... )

4. The Modern Versions ( ...of copied faked... ) Tarots
( ...with the late 18th century a new type of hype started - and hasnt stopped yet - it derived in the such classics as the Crowley-Thoth-Deck and the Rider-Waite-Tarot - nevertheless both knew something...
- Crowley tried to locate the 16 geomantic characters in the cards - but he searched in the wrong place...
...and Waite brags about the permutation of the trumps 8 and 11 - he makes some really big fuzz about not telling "why"...
- this is because he didnt know WHY... and he didnt know WHERE ether...
This permutation took place when the Ta system was transformed into the Tb - for merely technical purposes - but it didnt involve the Trumps 8 and 11... )

5. The Really Modern Tarots
( They were made up in the last 50 years or so - without any root in the Tradition - except the fabled ones in the minds of their authors - such as the H. R. Giger- or Dali- or Osho Zen Tarot... etc. ... etc. ... etc. ...
The only things they have in common with the Ts is that their cards have four corners ( ...oh - I forgot the round ones - Mother Earth etc. ... ) and at least nice colorful pictures - but they are without any meaning - so far as the Tradition is concerned... )


This Thread is about True Tarot or T.

Now should be the right time to tell you that I dont mean to offend anyone - because some of the above must seem pretty harsh to you...

I decided to go public after my encounter with Lothar from trionfi.com - as I told you in my introduction ( the e-mail exchange we had will appear in an additional post in this Thread... ) - there it became clear that nevertheless they did incredible historical research they are about to strip the Tarot from any meaning other than that it was meant to be an amusing card play for the upper class in 15th century Italy and some parts of Europe...

For the Visconti-Sforza cards this couldnt be more far from the truth...

...and if they succeed - even with most honorable intentions in mind - this ageless wisdom device might be buried in Wagner's moldy study chamber... forever...

One thing the renaissance is famous for is the building of mental structures for preserving memories and complex edifices of ideas... visual imprinting does work best - that is why the Tarot cards have pictures on them...
Leonardo da Vinci is known for this memorizing technique - but he didnt invent it...

Thats what in our days a computer is for and this is why Eliphas Levi talked about the Atu as being a book from which someone could come to know all about the world what there is to know without "reading" any other book ever - period...
...and this is why the Tarot is the Liber Mundi...

To see for yourself you should be familiar with the description of the 16 geomantic characters and their Latin Names - foremost the ones given to them by Hugo Sanctaliensis because they are much more descriptive ( and their transcriptions... )...
You must know ( and you can for example visit the trionfi page for this... ) that this system was very popular not only in Italy during the renaissance and of course Filippo Maria Visconti was very familiar with it...

That would be enough for starters to identify those 16 Figures among the 22 Atu of the recommended Visconti-Sforza Deck...

But this is only the first step of many many more and the 16 Figures are only one first part of the vocabulary this book is written with - because if you want to write a book about something really important and secretive you would need some kind of alphabet - a secret alphabet - this thinking was very common at that time - see the Templars or the Masons and John Dee for example - and of course the Tarot isnt about the geomantic system - it is only used and transformed to carry a new information...
And as any other real working ancient or "magical" system it has its keys embedded in its skin...

The same goes for the pictures themselves - they resemble in some cases Minichiate or other at that time popular cards because the artists who were employed to do some cards ( I say some because in that period nearly no artist would be given the contract for a whole and complete deck - there were mostly two of them working on one deck without knowing of eachother - this is why there were for example two different painters for the Ta identified...

Mostly the deck was divided in the four minor sets and 14 Atu for one artist and the contract for 8 Atu was given to a similar good one ( because there are 16 geomantic characters in 8 pairs the most useful and secret way was to split the pairs so that no artist couldnt know what his work was about ) - at that time that was no problem because art had rules-of-art and an artist was some kind of craftsman...
This is why modern enthusiasts like to think the early Tarots consisted of 5 sets per 14 cards - you can read something about that in Lothars e-mails...
And this is why they wonder what it is with the 8 trionfi in the early manuscripts they found...
They dont do the math...

And of course you would need new eyes and a very open mind - this means you better forget all those things you have heard and read about the cards and their meanings and their purpose...
As you see on those early cards there are no names or numbers on them - they are a later practical invention...

So - when you got your new eyes and have cleared your mind from all clouded thinking - take out the 22 Trumps and spread them on the table...
You will find that some of the pictures seem to be mythical and some seem to be somewhat empty - there is nothing more on it as the obvious...
For example the card referred to as "the Star" - because there are persons on every card here is a woman - and she is holding up or catching "a Star" - thats it - nothing more ( for the moment )... so this card doesnt belong to the 16 we are searching for...

And there are other cards referred to as "the Magician" for example - but when you have a closer look with your new eyes - what is really depicted here ?
Forget the word "Magician" and see for yourself...
...and then you may read the descriptions of the geomantic figures and find there some character whom this embodiment fits...

The same goes for the card "the Hermit" - is that really a HERMIT or...
For that card you should have the geomantic character names created by Hugo Sanctaliensis in mind...

An easy pair of the 16 figures to find among the Atu is the one called Laetitia ( Happiness ) and Tristitia ( Sadness ) -
Those are the common Latin names of this pair - Hugo Sanctaliensis calls Happiness BARBATUS RIDENS ( the laughing bearded man )...
With your new eyes you will see that nevertheless there are many bearded men pictured on the cards - there is only one mythical depiction of real living man with a really impressing beard - yet he is not laughing - but he is shown in such a way that life itself seems to be smiling upon him for his whole long life...
...and his counterpart Sadness is called by Hugo Sanctaliensis TRANSVERSUS DIMINITUS ( the reversed short - or young - man ) - with your new eyes this should be a quite easy one to detect...

So - there you have your first pair...

Another one easy to find should be Puella ( young Girl or Virgin) and Puer ( young Man or Rowdy) - the creators of the cards have found very clever ways to depict a connection between the pairs - sometimes through very little details...

And a third easy pair should be Acquisitio ( Income or Gain ) and Amissio ( Loss or Deprivation )...

That should be enough for now...



If you want to - come and see...

C
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"C"  "C" is offline
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My ( C ) e-mail exchange with Lothar from Trionfi.com


Greetings Pilgrims...

Im not sure whether I should write my Letter of Acknowledgement to you in English or German because I have seen that there are Germans in your Team also...
Ill give it a try in English...

First I must say I came across your Page by chance - and was overwhelmed with the Quality and Details - WOW !
Nevertheless its a bit hard to navigate for a Newcomer like me - even when you know what you are looking for...
...but - no Offense...

Second I must congratulate you on your thinking about Filippo Maria Visconti and his Relation to the 16 Geomantic Figures - but have you ever thought on identifying them in the Visconti-Sforza-Tarot - I couldnt find something on that on your Page ?
If so - please tell me...

Sincerely

C

=========================================

~~~ Further posting removed by moderator ~~~


The contents of private communications by email or private messaging are not permitted without express permission of both parties.

Additionally, postings in a foreign language must be accompanied by an english translation.



Bernice.
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conversus  conversus is offline
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conversus 

Deleted

Sorry!

CED
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"C"  "C" is offline
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Wink


Get well soon!

C
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philebus  philebus is offline
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I'm sorry, but I don't find enough in your first post to be convinced of what you are saying and like most others here, I don't have any German to read the second. If the meat of your case is there, could I ask you to re-state it in English.

On a side note, I am always cautious when people describe what are - or what they take to be - ancient beliefs as being wisdom. In your case an "ageless wisdom device". I've read many ancient beliefs and have found it impossible to call many of them either knowledge or wise. It is the difference between the knowledge of what some people believed being of direct practical value to us now or only of value in understanding the past. The claim that tarot represents "Ancient Wisdom" is a common one but I never seem to find anyone qualifying the claim of wisdom over just past belief. I do not want to seem to be putting down the importance of understanding the past, far from it, but the qualification of wisdom is a separate matter.

With regards to this statement: "they are about to strip the Tarot from any meaning other than that it was meant to be an amusing card play for the upper class in 15th century Italy and some parts of Europe..." you seem to rather play down the significance of tarot's gaming history. I would point out that while tarot began as a game for the upper class in 15th century Italy, that quickly changed as production costs lowered and the games spread rapidly and far from being played in just "parts of Europe" they continue to be played throughout a significant portion of it: Italy and Sicily, Switzerland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Austria, Hungary, Germany, France, and Denmark.
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Moonbow  Moonbow is offline
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Moonbow 

Okay C, looking at your post with an open mind, as you request, I would like you to at least summarise your email discussion with Lothar so that I can better understand what your encounter was actually about, we can read your views but not his and since you mention the discussion it would be prejudiced of me to know only one side of the conversation.

I also think it would help my own understanding if you provide a link to Hugo Sanctaliensis' latin names for the 16 geomantic figures, I'm afraid my googling didn't bring up much.
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Bernice  Bernice is offline
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~~ Forum Rules ~~


Hello "C",

I have to point out that if your post contains text in another language it must be accompanied by an English translation. Often a word-by-word translation may not be necessary if a summation can be given in English.

You have an interesting approach to the Marseille decks. Why do you believe that geomantic figures are encoded in the images?


Bernice.
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"C"  "C" is offline
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Glad to meet you Bernice...


As you may know Ive received a private message from you with nearly the same content - so I would like to answer it also in this post...

I wasnt aware of distracting Fellow Aeclectics with this kind of original posting - I wanted just to to be fair - so I didnt translate Lothars e-mails...
Nevertheless he assured me just today that his statements were only of private nature...
...and by no means the "official" Trionfi.com point of view - I was quite relieved to hear that and with that there would be no use at all for posting his e-mails on this Thread - German or translated...

So it would be nice if you could delete them - or tell me how to do so because Im kind of a Newcomer to all this Forum staff - no offense intended...

Referring to your question...

I could just answer ...because thats the way it is... but this wouldnt be polite...

I dont know whether you read through the first ( English ) part of this Thread - there you might find some answers...


If not - let me know

C
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"C"  "C" is offline
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to Moonbow...


Referring to the first part of your post - concerning the e-mail exchange with Lothar - you may look at my reply to Bernice...

Nevertheless there is a Link ( I think the only one ) in it that takes you to an English written scientific Text about Geomantic systems in the whole - the text itself isnt something I would recommend for several reasons - but there are some Lists of the Names in it that mention the names Hugo Sanctaliensis gave to the 16 Figures ( I think on page 41 - its a pdf )...

http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_mode...TON%201996.pdf

In the above I have just written about some significant differences between his and the commonly known Latin names of the figures - maybe you should try them first...

C
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"C"  "C" is offline
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to philebus...


Referring to your wish to know more about the German written e-mail exchange with Lothar I would like you to have a look on my reply to Bernice...

What would be the point for me to convince you of anything ?
Im just offering a new perspective - you may give it a try...
...or not...

I couldnt agree more with you concerning your second paragraph...

But the statements you make about Tarots card-playing-history dont belong to the Ts - those things were only for people who were "not in the know"...

As you may try what Im talking about in the above you may see with your own eyes that there is something to it...


If not - I could live with that...

C
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