["C"]

...

***I see you are steeped in occultism, especially Thelema - you use the term "Atu" and spell "magick", and perhaps the importance of Puer and Puella in your scheme is indicative. This might help interpret your hints.***

...You couldnt be more far from the truth - if you read what Ive said about "the modern Classics" as there are for example Crowleys and Waites Decks - you should have gotten that Im not very fond of them...

I use the word Atu because its a nice short Term to tell what Im talking about - Im not so much of a fast writer...

I spell the word Magick in this post in Crowleys way because he romanticized the cards - especially "the Devil" - for his very own sake...
He was given some Hints but he was so steeped in his own occultism ( Thelema... ) that he couldnt get it right...

There is nothing special about PUER and PUELLA - they are only misprinted in the lists - and I tried to inform you about that...

***Because it is not self-evident or even relatively easy, I don't think it will convince anyone - except those who want to be convinced.***

Thats what its all about - it is self-evident - thats the whole point - and when I come to Your list of resemblances between the 16 and the 22 we will talk about THAT...

So - lets see what Youve got...
Ill only talk about Your correct findings... and give you some hint to help you further on...
Ill use the common LATIN Names to identify the geomantic Character...

VIA - sorry

POPULUS - the so called WORLD - a City is depicted where MANY PEOPLE live as CITIZENS side by side...

CONJUNCTIO - the so called LOVE - You got it ! ( two LOVERS MEET EACHOTHER )

CARCER - sorry

FORTUNA MAJOR - sorry

FORTUNA MINOR - sorry

ACQUISITIO - the so called MAGICIAN - here is some real "self evidence" and therefore it would be really interesting WHY You chose this card...

AMISSIO - the so called FOOL - again it would be nice if You told me WHY You choose that card...

LETIZIA / BARBARTUS RIDENS - the so called HERMIT

TRISTICIA / TRANSVERSUS - the so called HANGED MAN

PUELLA - sorry

PUER - the so called STRENGTH - a YOUNG BEARDLESS MAN ( Teenage Rowdy with all the thriving virility of puberty and a CLUB - but no offense - he is also ORION... )

ALBUS - sorry

RUBEUS - the so called DEATH - depicted like a warrior with a bow ( the RED One killing people with PLAGUE - the Arrow - and PESTILENCE as a PUNISHMENT by GOD... - in a way GODs SOLDIER )

CAPUT ( DRACONIS ) - sorry

CAUDA ( DRACONIS ) - sorry


Nice matches - to find the right pair you should have a closer look at the small details - for example...

PUER - the so called STRENGTH - you should have a close look on his clothes - especially his shirt and socks - than you should find his ( twin ) sister...

C

["C"]

...You are VERY right...

CAUDA ( DRACONIS ) - the so called DEVIL ( even when there is no ORIGINAL card in the Deck... )

***I've also wondered if some clue to Cs' arrangement might be in the images - regardless of the card name***

Again You are VERY right - thats what its all about - and its not MY arrangement...

***As given so far, this has been an interesting diversion, albeit that 6 of the trumps have been discarded without any explanation. Perhaps further thought might develop this idea into a viable theory for 'reading' with the trump cards....... maybe add another layer of meaning.***

I said that to find the 16 between the 22 is only the first of many many steps - some kind of vocabulary to the cards - besides their names every one of the 16 has some kind of personal profile when they are used in divination - on this first level - from this profile the first layer of meaning for the card derived...

The explanation for the 6 somewhat other Atu will follow...

C

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by C

...

***I see you are steeped in occultism, especially Thelema - you use the term "Atu" and spell "magick", and perhaps the importance of Puer and Puella in your scheme is indicative. This might help interpret your hints.***

...You couldnt be more far from the truth - if you read what Ive said about "the modern Classics" as there are for example Crowleys and Waites Decks - you should have gotten that Im not very fond of them...

Okay, sorry, I missed that. I *AM* steeped in occultism, especially Crowley and GD type, so when I see usages like that I assume that you are coming from there.

I use the word Atu because its a nice short Term to tell what Im talking about - Im not so much of a fast writer...

I spell the word Magick in this post in Crowleys way because he romanticized the cards - especially "the Devil" - for his very own sake...
He was given some Hints but he was so steeped in his own occultism ( Thelema... ) that he couldnt get it right...

There is nothing special about PUER and PUELLA - they are only misprinted in the lists - and I tried to inform you about that...

Puer and Puella are important "signs" in Thelemic ritual, so I thought you might have been alluding to that.

So - lets see what Youve got...
Ill only talk about Your correct findings... and give you some hint to help you further on...
Ill use the common LATIN Names to identify the geomantic Character...

Great! I like a puzzle. Part of my guesses were based on the assumption of occult/esoteric connections (like Empress=Blood (menstrual blood being important to Thelemites)).

So a new list:

VIA - EMPRESS

POPULUS - the so called WORLD - a City is depicted where MANY PEOPLE live as CITIZENS side by side...

CONJUNCTIO - the so called LOVE - You got it ! ( two LOVERS MEET EACHOTHER )

CARCER - FORTUNE

FORTUNA MAJOR - CHARIOT

FORTUNA MINOR - EMPEROR

ACQUISITIO - the so called MAGICIAN - here is some real "self evidence" and therefore it would be really interesting WHY You chose this card...

--- I was thinking of the table, which has what could be thought of as merchandise, and Mercury, the God of Merchants

AMISSIO - the so called FOOL - again it would be nice if You told me WHY You choose that card...

----- he is clearly destitute, that's all.

LETIZIA / BARBARTUS RIDENS - the so called HERMIT

TRISTICIA / TRANSVERSUS - the so called HANGED MAN

PUELLA - TEMPERANCE (thanks for the hint)

PUER - the so called STRENGTH - a YOUNG BEARDLESS MAN ( Teenage Rowdy with all the thriving virility of puberty and a CLUB - but no offense - he is also ORION... )

ALBUS - POPESS

RUBEUS - the so called DEATH - depicted like a warrior with a bow ( the RED One killing people with PLAGUE - the Arrow - and PESTILENCE as a PUNISHMENT by GOD... - in a way GODs SOLDIER )

CAPUT ( DRACONIS ) - POPE

CAUDA ( DRACONIS ) - DEVIL

["C"]

...as I said in the above You are right about "the DEVIL" - no need to excuse for new eyes...

***So, should we now consider that either the commissioner or the cardmaker(painter) of the Visconti-Sforza deck added the 'empty' images in order to hide the geomantic cards, and their 'secret' import? If so why, what is the secret message being conveyed?***

No - you should consider that T²(a) and the Ideas behind it are completely alien to you - that is why we have to do it this way - there is no other...

C

["C"]

...You are a very fast learner - I like that...

...BUT I must request something from You...
Since You are doing a lot of work for the people out there who are not able to see with their own eyes yet it would be nice if You would give more detail for Your findings - this could spare me ( and them ) some time...
Maybe in a year or so many people will read Your posts and they should know WHY You came to a conclusion like...

***PUELLA - TEMPERANCE (thanks for the hint)***

Be a little more specific and descriptive in WHAT You see so they can see with Your eyes the "self evidence" we talked about earlier...

Your List...

VIA - sorry ( given that we found POPULUS to be the WORLD and given that we are searching for PAIRs glued together by a certain resemblance in their depiction - like PUER and PUELLA - what would be Your next choice ? )

Youve got ONE other catch right...

ALBUS - POPESS

But - WHY - tell me ( and tell them ) about Your choice and WHY she pairs up with DEATH...

So - PLEASE - make a new List for us...

C

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by C

...You are a very fast learner - I like that...

...BUT I must request something from You...
Since You are doing a lot of work for the people out there who are not able to see with their own eyes yet it would be nice if You would give more detail for Your findings - this could spare me ( and them ) some time...
Maybe in a year or so many people will read Your posts and they should know WHY You came to a conclusion like...

***PUELLA - TEMPERANCE (thanks for the hint)***

Be a little more specific and descriptive in WHAT You see so they can see with Your eyes the "self evidence" we talked about earlier...

Your List...

VIA - sorry ( given that we found POPULUS to be the WORLD and given that we are searching for PAIRs glued together by a certain resemblance in their depiction - like PUER and PUELLA - what would be Your next choice ? )

Youve got ONE other catch right...

ALBUS - POPESS

But - WHY - tell me ( and tell them ) about Your choice and WHY she pairs up with DEATH...

So - PLEASE - make a new List for us...

C

O damn! I thought I had Carcer right for sure this time. Even the geomantic figure looks like a wheel, and people are "caught" on it, etc.

Albus, because she is white, and you previously hinted at holiness and knowing scripture.

Why she should be paired with "the Red", I don't know, unless I go into alchemy or chess, and then it is only the colours, and not the figures on the cards, that matter. A Thelemite might quote "the knowledge of me is the knowledge of death", and there are also classical philosophical statements to the effect that all of philosophy is the knowledge of death, but that seems far-fetched.

Temperance, because you said to look at the socks of Hercules/Fortitude, and find his twin. She was the only one left to be both a woman and have red socks.

Temperance moderates Force, one might say - thereby creating Justice, the balance between Mercy and Punishment.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by C

.
VIA - sorry ( given that we found POPULUS to be the WORLD and given that we are searching for PAIRs glued together by a certain resemblance in their depiction - like PUER and PUELLA - what would be Your next choice ? )

Okay, Populus is double Via, so I would guess Fortune is Via (since Fortune is the closest to half of 21, and the Hermit and Strength are taken).

A wheel "goes" and "turns" as well, just as "via" suggests going.

[Lillie]

Is this a guessing game?

I vote for the sun for via and judgement for carcer.

What else is left?

I find all the posts a bit confusing.

Can we have a master list of the ones that have been guessed right?

[Lillie]

And caput draconis would be the star.

Which would leave (surely) the moon and the tower for the fortunas.

Assuming your system sticks to what you said at the beginning.

8 of the geomantic cards by one artist and 8 by the other...

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by Lillie

And caput draconis would be the star.

Which would leave (surely) the moon and the tower for the fortunas.

Assuming your system sticks to what you said at the beginning.

8 of the geomantic cards by one artist and 8 by the other...

Well, there are 14 cards by one artist, and 6 by a second, but since the Devil can be included, I wonder also about the Tower - so you may be right, it might be 8 + (6+2). But C has excluded the Star as "empty", so I am assuming Moon and Sun are also empty, but I may be wrong.

It is not merely a guessing game, but also a learning game, in that we are learning the basis for C's assignation of various cards to the geomantic figures.